Name that Skill!

[JoseDominguez]

Anything that must be learned is a skill......... by definition. But anything that can be learned by a monkey is not a particularly impressive one.
Face it, if you are impressed by the rate at which someone can waggle their fingers, then go to an AA meeting, recovering alcoholics have incredibly fast finger speed.

 

[Mark Toye-Nexus]

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
Anything that must be learned is a skill......... by definition. But anything that can be learned by a monkey is not a particularly impressive one.
Face it, if you are impressed by the rate at which someone can waggle their fingers, then go to an AA meeting, recovering alcoholics have incredibly fast finger speed.

Totally agreed, my argument entirely

Impressed by it - not really - value it? (with semi only across the board) - yes

 

[Furby]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
1--you all are playing word games I'm not. You may not like my argument but nobody yet has put a dent in it.

2--in your original post you equated inconsistency with a lack of a single authorizing, over-seeing authority, not to unenforceable rules and that was the part I was responding to.

3--it might very well but please notice you have been reduced to claiming some phantom True semi-auto so my argument has already impacted how you look at the issue. So, please tell me when you think was the last time we had True semi auto? (It hasn't been anytime recently. Before the introduction of the first R/T perhaps?)

4--as I recall the arguments of the past opposed to excessive rates of fire insisted that with too much paint in the air no one would ever be able to move and the game would stagnate. Yet, you're telling me easy high ROF are enabling your whole team. So which is it?

5--what was the last gun of yours that didn't offer a helping hand?

Safety arguments are another kettle of fish altogether and I will gladly agree that there are safety issues in paintball.

I'm reduced to itemizing now...what depths will I go?

1. I beg to differ...you've been arguing semantics for some time now.

2. Fair enough. I feel that an umbrella organization that oversees a particular sport and enforceable rules go hand in hand.

3&5. R/T has been illegal for some time in just about every major tournament series, a view I disagree with, to be honest. Finding the sweet-spot on an R/T'd 'mag is tougher (to me) than to learn how to effectively walk an electronic trigger. As for my markers lending me a helping hand, if you mean by improved trigger geometry, superior trigger adjustments (Kurt is a monster on a trigger job) and the like, then yes, just about every marker I've owned the past 5 years has been optimized for me. If you're insinuating that I use enhanced modes,my response is that you know me personally better than that. Or that even when I have the electronics set to eliminate bounce, added shots or the like it still 'helps out', you'd have to consult with the various manufacturers on that. My beef with adjustable bounce and the like has always been that the ranges of adjustability have always been way too wide. There's never been a need in a competitive enviroment for TR22 or DB1 unless you were wanting to cheat in some fashion.

4. My point was that when the PSP-Compliant ramping is allowed, it makes for a fundamental change in the tactical enviroment. When it is not, there's an altogether different tactical enviroment. As I've said before whilst wearing my hat as a paint distributor, with the ramping ALOT more paint is being shot, which warms my money-grubbing heart. With true semi, there isnt'. As a player, I prefer true semi, because that gives me an advantage over other players out there, who have their own advantages over me. I hear alot of the advocates for ramping saying that it 'levels the playing field'...whoever said life, or paintball were level playing fields? I shoot faster than some players, and I'm good at suppressing a field...others are much younger and much faster on their feet than I am. It's not fair, but that's how it is. Dealing with those limitations and adapting to the opposition's advantages are the heart of competition. Your assertion that taking the firepower out of the equation by giving everyone the same amount of firepower, thus making it a 'level playing field' is pure BS. Your arguments stating that "True Semi" is unenforceable is poppycock as well...it can be done, but the lengths that must be taken to do so aren't yet being taken. Whether or not they will be is a political question rather than a technical one.

For the record, I don't think giving the already overworked, underpaid refs on the field the subjective discretion to determine whether or not a marker is ramping/bouncing/whatever as suggested in Robbo's article is the way to go. I for one prefer to keep as many subjective calls away from the refs as possible. And even if a solution is found, there will still be cheating of one sort or another, no matter what rule is in effect, or to what lengths the officials go to.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Furby
I'm reduced to itemizing now...what depths will I go?

1. I beg to differ...you've been arguing semantics for some time now.

2. Fair enough. I feel that an umbrella organization that oversees a particular sport and enforceable rules go hand in hand.

3&5. R/T has been illegal for some time in just about every major tournament series, a view I disagree with, to be honest. Finding the sweet-spot on an R/T'd 'mag is tougher (to me) than to learn how to effectively walk an electronic trigger. As for my markers lending me a helping hand, if you mean by improved trigger geometry, superior trigger adjustments (Kurt is a monster on a trigger job) and the like, then yes, just about every marker I've owned the past 5 years has been optimized for me. If you're insinuating that I use enhanced modes,my response is that you know me personally better than that. Or that even when I have the electronics set to eliminate bounce, added shots or the like it still 'helps out', you'd have to consult with the various manufacturers on that. My beef with adjustable bounce and the like has always been that the ranges of adjustability have always been way too wide. There's never been a need in a competitive enviroment for TR22 or DB1 unless you were wanting to cheat in some fashion.

4. My point was that when the PSP-Compliant ramping is allowed, it makes for a fundamental change in the tactical enviroment. When it is not, there's an altogether different tactical enviroment. As I've said before whilst wearing my hat as a paint distributor, with the ramping ALOT more paint is being shot, which warms my money-grubbing heart.

A. With true semi, there isnt'. As a player, I prefer true semi, because that gives me an advantage over other players out there, who have their own advantages over me.

B. I hear alot of the advocates for ramping saying that it 'levels the playing field'...whoever said life, or paintball were level playing fields? I shoot faster than some players, and I'm good at suppressing a field...others are much younger and much faster on their feet than I am. It's not fair, but that's how it is.

C. Dealing with those limitations and adapting to the opposition's advantages are the heart of competition. Your assertion that taking the firepower out of the equation by giving everyone the same amount of firepower, thus making it a 'level playing field' is pure BS.

D. Your arguments stating that "True Semi" is unenforceable is poppycock as well...it can be done, but the lengths that must be taken to do so aren't yet being taken. Whether or not they will be is a political question rather than a technical one.

For the record, I don't think giving the already overworked, underpaid refs on the field the subjective discretion to determine whether or not a marker is ramping/bouncing/whatever as suggested in Robbo's article is the way to go. I for one prefer to keep as many subjective calls away from the refs as possible. And even if a solution is found, there will still be cheating of one sort or another, no matter what rule is in effect, or to what lengths the officials go to.

The Darkside awaits. Your anger only makes you stronger.

1. Even Toye is qualifying his love affair with fast shooting to a (non-existent) semi only universe which is, whether he recongizes it or not, step one in the series of defined restrictions that would give value to the ability to shoot fast. Which is, of course, half of my original argument. D'oh!
So call it whatever you like.

3. (5) The question is whether or not an R/T type marker is, by definition and/or rule, a true semi-auto and the simple, straightforward answer is of course not. And the point I was trying to make is that marker design "advances" have since only taken us further and further away from actual semi-auto as it was originally intended. (I will say that you could re-define the term such that R/T's are legal but the consequences inevitably lead to where we are now and are the direct result of nobody holding the line, by definition or rule, at the beginning of the electro era.) My additional point was, and is, that the electro markers are designed intentionally to assist the user regardless of your intent and long ago drove the technology way beyond the rules as a satisfactory means of regulation.
As to you specifically, I would not and did not intend to imply that you intentionally violated or tried to violate any rule. Only that the nature of your current markers produces that result most of the time regardless of your best intentions--or those of anyone else.

4. No doubt we're slipping into semantics again but my point was the game has changed less than your perception of it and my example was meant to demonstrate that the same thing--shooting fast effortlessly--has been viewed in diametrically opposed ways not based on any particular undeniable reality but on the limitations of those making a judgment.

A. there is no 'True' semi-auto in play today so you can't possibly claim anything about what it's effects are or would be.

B. The use of widely divergent non-standardized equipment isn't the same thing as physical differences between the players. You might as well say small, fat or old baseball players get to use bigger, heavier bats than the other guys.

C. No, the heart of competition, at least in the terms of a game or sport, is to define the nature of the particular game in such a way that the outcome is determined by the skill and ability of the participants. Which relates directly to one portion of my argument against claiming fast shooting as a pball skill--the equipment is the primary determinitive factor and that equipment isn't standardized.

D. My argument is that True semi-auto doesn't presently exist--and all of you know it--which is why y'all are now qualifying semi only as "True" semi only.

 

[Mark Toye-Nexus]

Baca

I qualify it as valued in a 'true' semi only world only because that is what i am striving for.

The cheats repulse me, I won't go down that road.

The semi only world can exist, the players generally want it - its just the unscrupulous over the years that have gained the edge. I am behind what Robo has written - I've been arguing those points for a while too - in fact I only read his article yesterday.

And lets not forget - the ramping's main advantage is consistent rof, not speed.

 

[Mark Toye-Nexus]

And love affair with speed?

Rampers have a love affair with it - I have a respect for the manual operation of the markers in a skillfull way.

 

[Steve Morris]

I think we have to keep the cap for at least the next couple of years and during that time methods of monitoring ROF will be improved along with the refs abilities.

Myself, I would prefer strictly controlled true semi. IF it were possible to monitor effectively then semi with a 15bps cap is second best. And as long as we have no empirical means with which to prove a gun was in a "mode" then we can't have a rule against it because to do so would be to hand an unfair advantage to the growing number of people who gun cheat. And as soon as 100% of players gun-cheat then we might as well let the rules catch up with reality n'est pas?

And even though I can certainly tell the difference between "true semi" and a PSP mode how do we know the player isn't hiding the mode he's gonna play with?

But we can for the most part monitor ROF. We just have to improve range, selectivity, ability to accurately detect "break modes" and user competence and experience.

Maybe before the start of next season the manufacturers could get together with the major leagues and decide on ways to tamper-seal tournament approved boards. Or maybe a list of agitator-only hoppers will have to be specified in the rules.

And maybe Iraq will become the Switzerland of the Middle East by next spring.


PS: Whatever happens we've GOT TO stop guns shooting more than one shot after trigger release.

 

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Mark Toye-Nexus

The semi only world can exist, the players generally want it - its just the unscrupulous over the years that have gained the edge.

But the one thing players want MORE than semi-auto mode is for their marker to shoot fast. Walk around the trade show at the next major tournament you go to and try out the variou smarkers - the ones in "semi-auto" mode. Not how unbelievably fast they all shoot. The industry does a very good job of putting markers into player's hands that are "semi only" and making players believe (or at least easily lie to themselves) that some miracle of technology makes them able to shoot that fast.

That's what people buy - the marker that shoots the fastest.

I shoot 10 bps, maybe, on a good day. Yet I walk into a booth and pick up amarekr that shoots faster. And the guy in the booth says "See how fast this marker shoots? That's because of (blah bolt blah cycle time blah blah)"

We all know that it's BS. It's because the board in the gun throws an extra shot in there every now and again, because no amount of technological advances with gun internals makes people's fingers move faster.

Once all the guns got as fast as anyone could legally shoot them the only way to sell more guns was to make them shoot faster than people could legally shoot them.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Mark Toye-Nexus
Baca

1--I qualify it as valued in a 'true' semi only world only because that is what i am striving for.

2--The cheats repulse me, I won't go down that road.

3--The semi only world can exist, the players generally want it - its just the unscrupulous over the years that have gained the edge. I am behind what Robo has written - I've been arguing those points for a while too - in fact I only read his article yesterday.

And lets not forget - the ramping's main advantage is consistent rof, not speed.

Mark,
I can appreciate the sentiment but the only way Paintball either maintains what is important or moves in positive directions is by seeing the present clearly and remembering how we got to where we are today. The consequences of failing to do so are evident all around us in this current gun cheats mess and while the whole shooting fast debate may seem trivial there are some serious implications involved yet to be confronted. At least that's how I see it.

1--in which case I would ask you the same thing I asked Furby; when was the last time you think you played true semi-auto? And my point again would be that is has been a few years minimum since the rules actually attempted to define and control even that seemingly most fundamental aspect of how the game's equipment operates and the result has delivered us all to universal gun cheats. It has also made meaningless any claim to be playing semi-only.

2--in many practical ways you've been on that road since the advent of the electro marker whether you meant to be or not. SEE Chicago's post above.

3--perhaps the semi-only world can exist but at present it doesn't, and, I would argue, hasn't for quite some time. I won't argue that the players don't really want it but I find Chicago's position hard to dismiss. Further if the reason you want true semi-auto is to make fast shooting a valuable skill you must also argue in favor of closely regulated, standardized markers--and I sincerely doubt most proponents of "semi-only" really want that.
(It is worthwhile to note here that the "answer" to gun cheats is the standardization of boards. That might be Step 1 but isn't really the end of the line.)

 

[bulldog2k]

Sometimes things in paintball surprise me. Hey, what can I say? I'm an optimist and a humanist - I want to think the best of people, but then I started playing paintball Only (partly) kidding...

This thread amazed me - it really did. It seems a little like Baca Loco is prodding sleeping animals just to see whether they'll bite or not.

Meta-ethics doesn't interest me and this doesn't either for the same reasons. This argument was finished by Toye in his first reply. The fact he didn't explain the flaw in your argument does not mean it is not wrong.

In addition, Gyroscope talked truth and sense, which in my experience, he almost always does.

It would logically incorrect, Baca Loco, to use the motor racing example as a holistic counter to your argument when it wasn't yours, but presumably, by furthering it, you are in some sense endorsing it.

Formula 1 vs Formula 3 would indeed bury driver skill under other issues. Making it hard to spot does not mean it does not exist, and not making it measurable does not mean it does not exist.

You appear to be using your own semantic definition of skill, which I think is...

No, the "skill" bit is in mastering an aspect of the game, any aspect, that applies equally to all competitors.

The dictionary definition posted earlier does not (surprisingly!) make any mention this. What it does say is...

Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience

When you say, "Can anyone explain where my argument is wrong?", you are actually saying, "Does anyone agree with my fictional definition of the word 'Skill'?"

I do not, Toye does not, Gyroscope does not, and Collier does not - I'm sure there are others. I'm sure all of us would also say it really doesn't matter...

I have decided that black means white, Baca Loco - where is the flaw in my argument?

###############

I really don't see what the 'no true semi for eyars' argument has to do with this semantic argument about whether shooting fast is a skill, but out of interest, is there any actual proof of which markers added shots? We're talking about deliberately adding shots, and not over-cooking bounce, or whatever?

If the answer to the last point is it's the same thing, please don't bother replying and refer to my meta-ethic/sematicism point above