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manike

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Jul 9, 2001
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Re: Actually....

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Uh, Chris? You are a college grad, right? Most of the time there are two teams on the field so by your math that would make it $437.50 per field per game. So Manike rounded up, he's British, ya know.
Exactly :)

And I think my captain over charge me on entry's ;) actually I rounded up the entry to 200 to keep the numbers simple for our American friends... didn't work huh Chris :)
 

Wadidiz

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Jul 9, 2002
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Chris,

I tried to answer your post about the need for paying a lot more. You, of course, are not obliged to answer my reply, but I'm still curious as to whether or not what I wrote has much or any merit.
Unfortunately my poor choice of words distracted a potentially good rebuttal.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
No. [that was to you, Chris] I don't think it has to be such a radical departure from the way things are done now. I'll limit my arguments to Millenium, NPPL and PSP.

Yes, what I have been nagging about will cost a little more, but not all that much more.

The key operating words here are organization, communication, pedagogics [good teaching] and logistics.

Let's do a reality check with the "new rules" except we keep remuneration mostly the same as now. Here's what a tournament would look like according to my proposals:

1. Reffing requirements for series points bring in a sufficient pool of pro and amateur refs.

2. Some rule "refresher" information is sent out to all refs to remind of the main points, the determination for consistency in rule enforcement and the fact that there will be accountability.

3. Head-field-judges are recruited and offered a little more pay for their responsibilities and accountability.

4. All head-field-judges attend a mandatory meeting the day before the tournament to emphasize all that we've been talking about.

5. All judges attend a mandatory briefing and training session the day before the tournament during which a "pop-quiz" is given and scored anonymously. The main questions that most got wrong or that caused confusion are gone over.

6. All judges then attend the captains' meeting to hear that the rules will be enforced, in front of the captains, as well as hear the other matters usually discussed.

7. The tournament is then run with far less problems than before. The ultimate and perhaps paid assistents (as required by size of the tournament) constantly monitor the quality of judging and stay in touch with the "field bosses".
________________________________

I know that some of this is happening already, but the main thing here is a new thrust, with the new, tougher rules suggested on the "Enforcing the rules..." thread. And new resolve.

Am I out to lunch here? I don't understand what's so hard about the suggestions and implementation.

And if no one else wants to take charge of the "re-education" program, I will. Just pay me something for it.

As for the costs, I feel fairly certain that PSP's tournaments (at least the way they were in the past) could easily absorb the extra costs. For Millennium, it might cost each team another €50, max €100 per tournament. But these costs could also be possibly absorbed by sponsors and/or organization.

I'm convinced it would be worth the time and effort. Someone break down for me how I may be wrong.

Steve
 

Minnow

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Jul 7, 2001
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What about having sponsored Marshalls ? The Angel field marshalls could be sponsored by WDP etc which would introduce a bit of competition between the Marshalls to gain players respect for marshalling. How well they marshall could have a bearing on the sponsorship package they receive etc.

Hows this ...(hypothetical of course)!!

Marshalls for one field = 8 Marshalls (7 man game)
Tournament organiser puts x amount of cash per field to the marshalls (lets say x = £5000 for a three day tournament)
Marshall's Sponsor pay marshalls on top of the x value for their services.
Marshalls can wear and use their sponsors gear (within reason ... no markers of course) shields, masks tops trousers, chrono's radio etc etc.

I think you can see where this is going the better marshalls will be likened to their sponsor which means more business for the sponsor and a better package back to the Marshalls where it is deserved.

I think if you want the best marshalling then the marshalls should not be players or at least not players in the series for which they are Marshalling. This is easy to say though as how do you attract people to Marshall if they don't get series points etc ..... Money.
 

Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
Originally posted by Minnow
What about having sponsored Marshalls ? The Angel field marshalls could be sponsored by WDP etc which would introduce a bit of competition between the Marshalls to gain players respect for marshalling. How well they marshall could have a bearing on the sponsorship package they receive etc.

Hows this ...(hypothetical of course)!!
That creates a possibility for bias. WDP sponsored refs could theoretically be coerced into showing favoritism towards WDP sponsored teams...That's the main problem.
 

Wadidiz

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Minnow,

At first blush I would say you're on to something. Just as long as there is 100% uniformity of rules and enforcement and that the new, tougher rules are used.

Pretty good idea for a little fish.:p

Steve

PS. I just thought of a catch. There could be suspicion of bad calls against rival companies.

SM
 

Minnow

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There are no catches that don't already exist !!

A team who is marshalling who shares the same sponsors as a team playing is just as likely to show favoritism.

A marshall who's friend is playing is just as likely to show favoritism.

etc
etc

I think that going the sponsored / paid marshalls route makes it easier to hold someone accountable and if they have a good package which could be jepordised by bad calls / favoritism then it makes them work harder to retain the package and stay unbiased.

Each sponsored Marshall team could have a head/ultimate who reports directly to the organiser / governing body of anything untoward including sponsor pressure to taint the outcome of games.

Bottom line ... you are never going to remove all possibilities for cheating, it's a case of damage limitation.

Minnow.
 
R

raehl

Guest
Well...

First, sorry Wadidz, I just havn't had a lot of time lately for web boards so I've been skimming.

You're plan sounds good, except for one thing my experience as an event promoter tells me:

It just won't happen. The refs won't read the rules, they won't show up to the "mandatory" meeting, they'll duck out early on the training session, and there's nothing you can do about it. Fact of the matter is if you're only paying $100 a day, you're going to have to take the refs you can get. There's no incentive for them to do what you want because when you get down to it, at $100/day, they're doing YOU the favor. You could say "Do it or you don't get the $100!", but then you'll just have a bunch of fields without any refs on them when your refs say "Ok, screw you and your $100!"

Now, if you were paying $200 a day, maybe you could get some refs who would think it worth their while to meet the other requirements. And if it was $300, you'd probably have people crawling over each other to get the reffing jobs and doing whatever it takes to keep them.

Basically, it comes down to this: How much money has to be on the line for the ref to battle through his hangover and get to the field on time, or better yet, stop him from partying at all? It's more than $100/day.


And I'd agree with others: You'll never have good reffing if the refs are also players in the league and are getting reffing points - and it screws up league rankings anyway. Someone sponsoring the refs would be better, and honestly, I don't think it would have any bearing on how well the sponsor teams do if the sponsor is insulated from the reffing, but on the other hand, it's the APPEARANCE of the possibility that's the problem. Whenever a team with the same sponsor does well, their opponents will bitch that it was because the refs were in their corner, even if they just plain got beat.


The only real long term solution is more money, and the only way we're going to get it is from out-of-industry sponsors, and the only way we're going to get that is if out of industry sponsors don't have to worry that their customers are going to be offended by the events they sponsor.

And I'm not talking things like the Jeremy Salm incident - in the grand scheme of things, that's just good gossip. Hell, it's even funny. I'm talking about the "Get the **** off my fields" and the fighting etc. No mom is going to be upset about Salm shooting from the woods, but you can sure as hell bet a mom will wonder about a company that has it's logo plasterred all over an event where the athletes feel the need to cuss and fight in front of her children.

Companies would much rather lose an opportunity to win over 10 customers than risk losing one.


There are way too many people in this industry who have been in 15+ years and just seem incapable of looking at themselves from an outside perspective. Too many people who just don't understand that we're NOT a sport and we just DON'T act like a sport because the only sport they've ever played is paintball, and because paintball is normal to them they think paintball is normal.

Paintball is *NOT* normal. It's not even freaking close. Athletic events with 2,000 participants? Team participation not known until a week or two before the event? Complete lack of accurate information about players and teams? Zero eligibility requirements beyond paying the entry fees? Reffing done by players, with actual season points awarded for the service? Spectators and players having free roam of the same areas? Companies selling product at the events?

It's a combination trade show, convention and entertainment event, not a sporting event.


Hrm.. it appears I've gotten off on a bit of a rant here. But you get the idea.


- Chris
 

TJ 2

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Sep 9, 2001
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OK, here's my problem with that Chris...

>>>I'm talking about the "Get the **** off my fields" and the fighting etc. No mom is going to be upset about Salm shooting from the woods, but you can sure as hell bet a mom will wonder about a company that has it's logo plasterred all over an event where the athletes feel the need to cuss and fight in front of her children.


Let's talk soccer - David Beckham. Possibly the most widely known and recognised sports figure on tha planet, national hero to tha Brits, got his own clothes range for kids...the whole nine yards.

Every single game he plays he, not unlike every single other professional soccer player, gets in the officials face, gets involved in altercations, tells tha ref to go **** himself and to **** right off on a regular basis - watch the TV, you can lip-synch it easy enough. Plus the entire opposition crowd will be busy singing 'Posh Spice takes it up the ass' to show their appreciation of Lady Victoria, his wife.

I don't see that denting soccer, or Beckham's status as goldenballs, with the world's media or the buying public and their parents.
 
R

raehl

Guest
Yes....

But we're not soccer.

When we have millions of people worldwide watching the sport, then our athletes can cuss up a storm.

But when our connection to the customer is dubious at best, we don't have that luxary.


Even then, if you watch a player bitch out a ref in a pro sport, it doesn't happen the same as it does in pro paintball. Have you ever seen a pro football player start bitching to the ref about the holding call while the clock is still running? In other sports, arguing with the ref happens when the game isn't happening. Ours is unique in tolerating interference with the officials while the game is actually going on.


And my other problem with that is "Just because other people do it doesn't make it wise, or even ok."



- Chris
 

Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
Errr....Chris, in soccer the clock is also ticking during bitching time.

I feel that the cursing will never be a big problem. It happens in every sport. It happens in soccer, in football (first hand experience talking here), it happens in every sport. Even in smaller, extreme sports. The lifestyles of some pro skateboarders are no big secret, yet mommy is still happy to fork out loads of cash for a new deck for her little boy's skateboarding set up.
There are way bigger issues then players throwing hissy fits. As a matter of fact, I believe it is actually expected of players at the highest level of their game (any game, not just paintball) to be 'emotional' about there sport.