Madrid

[MissyQ]

Can we start a 'Philosophy' section on the forum, so there is somewhere to post this type of stuff.......

 

[neil m1]

Absolutely. Virtually EVERY business operates at a loss for a considerable amount of time before it becomes profitable. People do it because they expect that if they invest in their business it will be profitable for them later.

And paintball people do it for another reason - a lot of these guys would rather make little or lose money doing it than allow someone else to have control of it.


As for "expect to get their money's worth", who says the players are not getting their money's worth? I can go to the BMW dealer and scream all day that I'm not getting my money's worth if they won't sell me a car for $10,000, but the problem isn't that I'm not getting my money's worth, the problem is I'm being stupid to expect that $10,000 can buy me a BMW.

Paintball players are stupid to expect they can have consistently good* paintball tournaments for the amount of money they are paying. It doesn't matter that it's a lot of money to you, it's not enough to pay to run events the way players claim they want them run.

*I should specify that I think it's very reasonable to get good tournaments for the amount of money they are paying, but not when "good tournaments" includes urban-area events on perfectly manucured grass/turf next to stadiums.

NO, NO, NO. Not every business run at a loss for a considerable amount of time. especially one that runs Once a yr only ( madrid )
Businesses cannot sustain loss for a considerable ammount of time, this is just fiction and a tax thing. if it's not working why would you plough money into it, you wouldn't do it.
And as for the BMW analogy that doesn't work and you can buy a BMW for $10,000. we are talking about paintball tourneys. Millenniums and Nppls cost a lot more than domestic tourneys and you should expect the Nppl and millenniums to be better, hell thats what we pay for.
You get what you pay for in every Nppl it should be the same in spain
end of

 

[Chicago]

You get what you pay for in every Nppl it should be the same in spain

Even when NPPL costs twice as much? How can you expect NPPL quality at half NPPL price? Are you saying that NPPL is ripping off players? Because I'm pretty convinced they are just charging what they need to do get the job done. You'll note that NPPL carries a lot more staff than Millenium does. That manpower leads to consistency.


I think Robbo has identified the most immediate problem in his recent posts. Not Pedro, but that there needs to be some single person who is in charge of the series and can carry expectations and expertise from one event to another. Millenium should hire someone to do that, and players should expect to pay higher entry fees (200 euros/team/event would probably do it) to have that person.


In fact, thinking about this, I agree that it is the promoters fault for not providing the events the players want. They should stop pandering to the players by promising what they want for the current prices, correct their mistake, and raise entry fees to a level where they can afford to hire the necessary staff to insure consistent, quality events.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Right...... having just returned from Madrid, I think I'll give you my perspective on the event, as I was actually there

This is purely from a player perspective.

I think the Millennium and Dye fields were actually good - the flooring on the DYE field looked like crap - but it worked pretty well and did not in any way impede normal game play.

I don't really understand why players have an issue with the JT and Chronic fields not being in play.... why on earth put them up when you can run the event on 2,5 field like they did? - fewer fields to walk, more games on the same field and longer breaks between games - to me that is all good.

The players area was really good, with lots of room and shade.

Air was up to it's usual high standard.

Someone mentioned the toilets? - I never stood in line for more than 60 seconds for a toilet, they were all proper toilets instead of the crappy (pun intended) portapotties we so often see (if there was no TP, then I can only say "welcome to paintball" - toilets NEVER have TP, because players nick it for use in the players area ).

On-site catering was the best since Niall had those hugely expensive people do it last time we were at Crystal Palace... and in Madrid it was cheap.

Trade fair was well set up with a nice atmosphere.

The general layout of the venue was fairly good, and nobody had to walk too far for anything.

Grand stand for the CPL field looked extremely small - but it was actually never completely full, even for the finals.... so it was apparently fine

What wasn't good was:

The artificial turf put down on the Tomahawk field was horrendous... come Saturday afternoon, it was so slippery that we might as well have played on ice.... it LOOKED nice - but who cares?

The refs were the worst I have seen this year... they didn't really cost my team anything, but a saw a lot of bizarre calls... and also noticed (to my big surprise) the head ref on the CPL field instructing a ref before a game on SUNDAY - on how he was supposed to signal when he called a player out and how to move his arms when pulling a 141.... I mean - COME ON - who on earth did they have reffing this event??

I also heard that the MS had asked the reffing teams to only bring 4 refs.... which meant that instead of having plenty of experienced refs and the ability to rotate them during the long hot days.... the refs were overworked in conditions that resembled a pressurecooker.... downright stupid.

(I wonder if those teams get the full 200 points for reffing, when they only had to bring 4 refs... and if reffing teams for Paris and Campaign will insist on only bringing 4 refs, or get more financial compensation for the extra 4 refs THEY have to bring??)

Paint storage had (to my knowledge) no temperature control, which meant that as the event progressed, every manufacturer had players complain that paint that was perfect the first day, was suddenly extremely bouncy.

For the 2nd event running, the MS had not wised up and gotten a good commentator for the CPL field... the little commentating that went on was so inane that we would have been better off without it.

As for who's fault those problems are.... I know it is getting popular to bash Pedro in here..... and as I have no knowledge about how the MS board work together and who handles what... I am unable to say who is in fact to blame for what.

BUT... I will say that when the MS has presented us all with them being one entity with joint economy and joint responsibility for all events, there is absolutely no reason for putting the blame on one single person..... it's too easy and too convenient I think........ they ALL share blame collectively - and whatever internal issues they may or may not have on the board, is really not my (or any other players) problem... they made their collective bed, and now have to sleep in it - all of them!

- They share the blame for not securing a venue 4-5 months ago
- They share the blame for not having a proper check list for all the items that are important to the teams (like paint storage temperature control))
- They share the blame for trying to cut cost by halfing the reffing staff
- They share the blame for using an artificial turf that is untested for paintball
- They share the blame for not securing XL turf for an event when they have known the dates for it for ages

Nick

 

[duffistuta]

Can we start a 'Philosophy' section on the forum, so there is somewhere to post this type of stuff.......

No - there are already enough Kants round here.

 

[Robbo]

Right...... having just returned from Madrid, I think I'll give you my perspective on the event, as I was actually there

This is purely from a player perspective.

I think the Millennium and Dye fields were actually good - the flooring on the DYE field looked like crap - but it worked pretty well and did not in any way impede normal game play.

I don't really understand why players have an issue with the JT and Chronic fields not being in play.... why on earth put them up when you can run the event on 2,5 field like they did? - fewer fields to walk, more games on the same field and longer breaks between games - to me that is all good.

The players area was really good, with lots of room and shade.

Air was up to it's usual high standard.

Someone mentioned the toilets? - I never stood in line for more than 60 seconds for a toilet, they were all proper toilets instead of the crappy (pun intended) portapotties we so often see (if there was no TWP, then I can only say "welcome to paint ball" - toilets NEVER have TP, because players nick it for use in the players area ).

On-site catering was the best since Niall had those hugely expensive people do it last time we were at Crystal Palace... and in Madrid it was cheap.

Trade fair was well set up with a nice atmosphere.

The general layout of the venue was fairly good, and nobody had to walk too far for anything.

Grand stand for the CPL field looked extremely small - but it was actually never completely full, even for the finals.... so it was apparently fine

What wasn't good was:

The artificial turf put down on the Tomahawk field was horrendous... come Saturday afternoon, it was so slippery that we might as well have played on ice.... it LOOKED nice - but who cares?

The refs were the worst I have seen this year... they didn't really cost my team anything, but a saw a lot of bizarre calls... and also noticed (to my big surprise) the head ref on the CPL field instructing a ref before a game on SUNDAY - on how he was supposed to signal when he called a player out and how to move his arms when pulling a 141.... I mean - COME ON - who on earth did they have reffing this event??

I also heard that the MS had asked the reffing teams to only bring 4 refs.... which meant that instead of having plenty of experienced refs and the ability to rotate them during the long hot days.... the refs were overworked in conditions that resembled a pressurecooker.... downright stupid.

(I wonder if those teams get the full 200 points for reffing, when they only had to bring 4 refs... and if reffing teams for Paris and Campaign will insist on only bringing 4 refs, or get more financial compensation for the extra 4 refs THEY have to bring??)

Paint storage had (to my knowledge) no temperature control, which meant that as the event progressed, every manufacturer had players complain that paint that was perfect the first day, was suddenly extremely bouncy.

For the 2nd event running, the MS had not wised up and gotten a good commentator for the CPL field... the little commentating that went on was so inane that we would have been better off without it.

As for who's fault those problems are.... I know it is getting popular to bash Pedro in here..... and as I have no knowledge about how the MS board work together and who handles what... I am unable to say who is in fact to blame for what.

BUT... I will say that when the MS has presented us all with them being one entity with joint economy and joint responsibility for all events, there is absolutely no reason for putting the blame on one single person..... it's too easy and too convenient I think........ they ALL share blame collectively - and whatever internal issues they may or may not have on the board, is really not my (or any other players) problem... they made their collective bed, and now have to sleep in it - all of them!

- They share the blame for not securing a venue 4-5 months ago
- They share the blame for not having a proper check list for all the items that are important to the teams (like paint storage temperature control))
- They share the blame for trying to cut cost by halfing the reffing staff
- They share the blame for using an artificial turf that is untested for paintball
- They share the blame for not securing XL turf for an event when they have known the dates for it for ages

Nick

Nick, pretty good post mate and I agree with the tone and I'm taking it as said, that the facts you mention are correct.
The problem the board had was one of perception and this was bought about by their own hand.
They had publicly announced to all and sundry that the 'collective' was now responsible for the promotion and management of all tourneys and this certainly gave the impression of a homogeneous responsibility for all events.
The truth of the matter was somewhat different in that Pedro is but one of the promoters but although the responsibility lay with all five, Pedro was the front man in terms of organsing etc.
The rest of the board were led by him at this event.
It makes sense to have the guy on the ground doing the footwork, he's the Iberian man on the ground and thus he took over the main task of event site procurement etc.
The problem arises when we try to tie down responsibility due to that initial statement and I believe it can be resolved like this, the board have responsibility for that event, of that there is no doubt.
Were the board equally responsible for its organization?
No, Pedro was the front man at this event as Laurent is for Paris etc.
Should heads roll?
Yes.
Whose head?
Pedro's

And on top of that, I think everybody, player and vendor deserves an apology and a statement of intent for future events.

I know Steve Baldwin and Laurent have already apologised to many people during this event even tho Pedro felt he didn't have to, and at one point offering teams the door if they did not like what was going on and qualifying it by telling them there were 'lots of other teams waiting to take their place'.
Nice

The board need to get this out of the way and get on with what the other 'real' promoters on this board do best, and that is to promote the rest of our series.

 

[neil m1]

Even when NPPL costs twice as much? How can you expect NPPL quality at half NPPL price? Are you saying that NPPL is ripping off players? Because I'm pretty convinced they are just charging what they need to do get the job done. You'll note that NPPL carries a lot more staff than Millenium does. That manpower leads to consistency.


I think Robbo has identified the most immediate problem in his recent posts. Not Pedro, but that there needs to be some single person who is in charge of the series and can carry expectations and expertise from one event to another. Millenium should hire someone to do that, and players should expect to pay higher entry fees (200 euros/team/event would probably do it) to have that person.


In fact, thinking about this, I agree that it is the promoters fault for not providing the events the players want. They should stop pandering to the players by promising what they want for the current prices, correct their mistake, and raise entry fees to a level where they can afford to hire the necessary staff to insure consistent, quality events.

The Nppl charge more but look at the event/venue, they put the money back into the business so that its consistantly good and hence is full up for every event. Thats what im saying about the nppl, Im NOT saying the Nppl rip people off cos that not what i wrote.
This is going round in circles i feel we will have to agree to diagree.
(But Im right)

 

[Ben Frain]

No - there are already enough Kants round here.

I see what you did there, it made me chuckle

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

They had publicly announced to all and sundry that the 'collective' was now responsible for the promotion and management of all tourneys and this certainly gave the impression of a homogeneous responsibility for all events.
The truth of the matter was somewhat different in that Pedro is but one of the promoters but although the responsibility lay with all five, Pedro was the front man in terms of organsing etc.

That may - or may not - be the case.... I have no information as to who was responsible for doing exactly what for the Madrid event.

Who for instance was responsible for the poor level of reffing?

Who was responsible for XL turf not beeing booked months ago, when it was still available?

Who made the descision that the reffing teams should not bring the required 8 persons?

From what I know of the series, none of those problems rest with the "man on the ground".

If we remove those problems from the list.... we are left with paint stoorage and using an artificial turf that was completely unsuited for paintball on one field.... and had those been the only problems, I would have been pretty happy with the event.

Nick

 

[jotajotaZ]

Yeah... you were not insulted in the captains meeting as some people were. That helps to be happy