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Chicago

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When I say that promoters who run good events are able to do so because they are lucky, I mean things like... what happens if a reffing crew quits? What happens if the air system goes down? What happens if scoreboards fail? There wasn't a scoreboard for CPL in Madrid, why was that? Is it because of some special mistake this event, or just because this was the event where the scoreboard HAPPENED to break? Should the league be investing in better locations or backup equipment?

Major events like this need to be run with money spent on covering contingencies that don't usually happen. Players will go to an event with great grass and no backup air system and think that event is better than an event with poor grass and a backup air system. And it is - unless the air system goes down. Similarly, and I don't know how often this is a problem in Europe, but both US leagues seem to have trouble with Sunday afternoon rolling around and refs starting to disappear as they need to leave to catch flights etc.


I just don't think most paintball players have any concept of just how much money and time is involved in running major events, and if they did, they may not be so quick to condemn those people responsible for putting on the events they get to play when one event doesn't run at the same level as the others. There seems to be some feedback that the Millenium board didn't have the proper oversight on this event to realize it was going to be sub-par before there wasn't a chance to do something about it. What were they supposed to do? It's hard to know the quality of your location without actually visiting it yourself. Are we expecting the whole board to take days off whatever else it is they do to travel to the location, and pay the expenses to do so? That's why I make such a big distinction between events hosted locally to a promoter and events hosted elsewhere - there is a LOT of money that needs to be spent when the event isn't local. That goes from having to have your head honcho guys travel (and the time and money associated with that) to not having a group of people you are familiar with to work the event and needing to spend time and money finding them or time and money arranging and paying for staff you are familiar with to fly in.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any way to correct this misconception about the cost and effort required to run major events other than getting these people to try and run national-level events themselves. Why people who have never done it seem so convinced they know more about it than the people who do do it is beyond me.


I think Millenium should create some positions to be in charge of certain aspects of the tournaments and open them up to volunteers and see how many players are willing to take days off of work and incur the travel expenses of fullfilling those responsibilities.

For starters, lets get a group of 5 players to start working now on going to find locations for all of the Millenium tournaments next year. Make sure each location has the facilities the player wants and then get a contract specifying that those services will be provided and provided at a price within the event facility rental budget. I'm sure there must be 5 players who have nothing better to do with their time than do this, right?

If the players are not willing to do it, why should the promoters be?

I'm going to bet not one person is going to volunteer to travel around Europe surveying event locations at their own expense for no money.

So, how much money would YOU want to take YOUR time to get ALL of the event locations? Consider what you'd want to be paid for your time plus all the money you're going to spend fllying around, staying in hotels, eating on the road, etc. Think you can find, evaluate, and secure an event location for less than $10,000 in wages and other expenses? Maybe if you only look at locations in your backyard, but that only gets you one location per year.
 

Krusty

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I take all evening reading this post (i'm a slow reader)... and laughing as a maniac.

The event was really really bad. There are no excuses to what happened in that place. In my country (Portugal) we didn't have any national championship with that conditions. Portuguese spend all time saying why the hell millennium is made in spain with that conditions when some fields had the same quality of some regionals on our country. But that is another point to discuss...

What really makes me to write here is just one thing. How can a headmarshal make 17 (seventeen) games thinking the time limit is 6 (six) minutes? The "problem" was only discovered when my team (Paintoon) was winning Kellys by men (4-2) and the headmarshal yells "GAME OVER" when there were still 60 seconds to play. One of the teams loose 2 points for sure... since we were with some advantage we felt a little more "stolen".
When our captain asked for explanations the marshal said: "Didnt you know that games have six minutes?". Since we were on travel during the captain reunion we couldn't argue with that... we thought it was said int the reunion.
After some research we try to get some justice on the result complaining to Ulrich. The answer was "do not expect nothing to be done!". That headmarshal continued reffering all weekend.

With the coditions we had and the BIG mistakes were made, i start to think if the price we pay to play higher competition is well paid. If I have better conditions, lower prices and better refs in my national league why should i spend my money with a league that do not serve the ones who pay the "service".
 

Chicago

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Krusty said:
With the coditions we had and the BIG mistakes were made, i start to think if the price we pay to play higher competition is well paid. If I have better conditions, lower prices and better refs in my national league why should i spend my money with a league that do not serve the ones who pay the "service".
Unless you want to play near stadiums, you shouldn't.

I'm not saying Madrid was acceptable. But with the amount of resources available to be put into the events, continued shortcomings are inevitable, and I'd suggest prioritizing the important things (like reffing) over the flashy things (like stadiums). Consistently good events are better than sometimes great and sometimes horrible events, and the staff just isn't there right now to get you consistency.

Let me put it this way: What should have been done to make Madrid better? Would it have been better merely if Pedro hadn't been allowed to run it? If Pedro didn't run it, who was going to? Who was going to fly down there to secure and check venues? Who was going to hire local people to work the event? Who was going to negotiate with the local service providers? Who was going to do the local promotion?

Millenium needs a Lane or a Bart. The Board thing isn't working any better for Millenium than it did for PSP.
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Chicago said:
1--When I say that promoters who run good events are able to do so because they are lucky, I mean things like... what happens if a reffing crew quits? What happens if the air system goes down? What happens if scoreboards fail? There wasn't a scoreboard for CPL in Madrid, why was that? Is it because of some special mistake this event, or just because this was the event where the scoreboard HAPPENED to break? Should the league be investing in better locations or backup equipment?

2--I just don't think most paintball players have any concept of just how much money and time is involved in running major events, and if they did, they may not be so quick to condemn those people responsible for putting on the events they get to play when one event doesn't run at the same level as the others.

3--Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any way to correct this misconception about the cost and effort required to run major events other than getting these people to try and run national-level events themselves. Why people who have never done it seem so convinced they know more about it than the people who do do it is beyond me.

4--For starters, lets get a group of 5 players to start working now on going to find locations for all of the Millenium tournaments next year. Make sure each location has the facilities the player wants and then get a contract specifying that those services will be provided and provided at a price within the event facility rental budget. I'm sure there must be 5 players who have nothing better to do with their time than do this, right?

5--If the players are not willing to do it, why should the promoters be?
1--and your point is? What, promotors shouldn't be held accountable for what they promise to deliver 'cus stuff happens? Seems to me for the amount of internet grousing most players are more than tolerant given they keep coming back for more.

2--Again, so what? The players didn't force anybody to offer anything they couldn't deliver so why do promoters get a pass when they screw up?

3--no misconception involved. Players don't care, nor should they, how much effort or cost is involved. They contract to participate in a given event for the price charged. They have no other obligation.

4--this is even dumber than the "if you're gonna complain about the refs why don't you try reffing" rejoinder. If you're a promoter don't make representations you can't live up to then you don't have to worry about people being upset when you don't deliver.

5--Well, gee, maybe because they're the ones offering the event? "Oh well, it's not very good, in fact I had no idea all those rocks were in the pasture but I didn't have time to actually check it out and do you have any idea how valuable my time is?" Yeah, that works.

Hey on the plus side maybe you and Missy will end up in agreement again. :)

PS--thought I'd try my hand at the made up quote. ;)
 

Chicago

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Maybe I missed something then - is Millenium promising great grass at every event? Players go, they play X number of games, and there is a winner. What happened in Madrid that was counter to what promoters promise for events? Did teams not get to play the requisite number of games? Were the prizes not delivered? Was there no air? I understand players didn't get the event they WANTED or EXPECTED, but I'm not sure where they didn't get the event they were PROMISED.


All I'm saying is that if players are expecting every event to be in/near nice stadiums, have plush grass, porta-potty forests, extensive bleachers, great reffing, nice, reliable air system, effective contingency plans for errors/weather, ample parking, etc, etc, AND get it at the price they are paying without some serious money coming in from somewhere other than the players/industry sponsors, they can keep dreaming. You can whine, bitch, hold people responsible, whatever, it's not going to make the things you want cost less and it's not going to increase the revenue available to the league and it's not going to make the poor saps stuck running the thing for compensation well below what they'd get for their skills in the open market to sacrifice more of their lives to give bitchy, thankless paintball players what they think they deserve.

And if you think for one second paintball players arn't thuroughly convinced they are absolutely ENTITLED to more than they deserve in reality, just go read some of those "SPONSOR ME, I BOUGHT A TIPPMANN AND AM THE NEXT BIG THING SO YOU SHOULD PAY FOR ME TO PLAY!" emails I'm sure you all have in your inboxes.


I mean, it's not like this is something only Millenium has a problem with - PSP had NE Open last year, NPPL had Miami. The only leaegue that has managed to run CONSISTENTLY GREAT events for an extended period of time is NPPL/PP in 2003/2004, and the only way they did that was by having a pile of people working on it full time, made possible by WDP being willing to dump a PILE of THEIR OWN MONEY into the league. That's the only way it works - someone being willing to dump in a lot more cash on top of the entry fees. So if the only way it happens is if somebody ELSE's money is used...

...tell me again why the players 'deserve' it if they ain't payin' for it?

I just can't in good conscience blame the Board when things don't go right at an event because they didn't put in even more of their time for even less money so OTHER people could have a tournament. You guys think it's a case of "If they can't give us the tournaments we want for the money we're paying, that's their problem!"

You want to know what would really suck? If you convinced them this was true and they said 'Fine, you're right, we shouldn't run these tournaments if we can't give you everything you want, and since I don't want to lose even more of my time/money doing this, we're not running tournaments anymore.' It's not like these guys are raking in the cash on this or something, and if you think they are, I submit that you are, indeed, pretty ignorant.

(I don't want to say stupid as I know most people here are pretty bright, but what you think is the case and what is the case is just so far apart...)
 

Robbo

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Chicago - the point has now been reached where it can justifiably be classified as one of those, 'give it up mate' moments.......the period of a reasonably held opinion has long since passed you by and been replaced with an adopted position that has more to do with not losing face than securing any sort of truth.
 
D

duffistuta

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Chicago said:
And if you think for one second paintball players arn't thuroughly convinced they are absolutely ENTITLED to more than they deserve in reality, just go read some of those "SPONSOR ME, I BOUGHT A TIPPMANN AND AM THE NEXT BIG THING SO YOU SHOULD PAY FOR ME TO PLAY!" emails I'm sure you all have in your inboxes.
I thought I told you to stop sending them...
 

rpcruzr

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Chicago said:
Unless you want to play near stadiums, you shouldn't.
We don't play NEAR the stadiums, we play IN the stadiums.

There is only one conceivable reason why these tournaments get played in Madrid, and it's the expected return of a bigger (don't know if more mature) market. Period.

Portugal has more than enough conditions to host such an event, it has all the proper motivation, skills and experience to host world-class events here. This has been proven time and time again.

It just pure fallacy that what happened in Madrid was other than pure disrespect for the paying crowd (in this case it's just the players, 'cause there is no other "crowd"). Establish a miminum, and THEN surprise the players with more than they expected. This is not a Madrid vs. Somewhere else issue. This was the promoters fault. For the simple reason it was his responsability.

To balance things out though, I would have to agree that maybe, as a community, we are living above our capacity to pay. In other sports, that have venues with the magnitude that we've come to expect (but not come to see apparently), the paying crowd, the "Johns" and "Janes" that don't play but come to see the sport anyway, make up a lot of the money that the promoters get. And with regular paying crowd, comes advertising and all those nice things.

We are putting our little shows, for "we the people" that are playing. Period.

Maybe we are trying to get too much, much too early. The sport has literally exploded in the past years, but maybe (just maybe) we are getting ahead of ourselves here.

Right now, It's time to realise that this thing just went pear-shaped, and now heads have to roll.

Sad but true...
 

jotajotaZ

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Chicago said:
If the players are not willing to do it, why should the promoters be?
You've opened up my eyes, thanks. My life is got a 180 degree turn now. All I got to do now is call all my customers and tell them "hey, do the work yourselves, if you're not willing to do it, why should I?" sit back and enjoy my daiquiri until I get my paycheck. :rolleyes:

Maybe I missed something then - is Millenium promising great grass at every event? Players go, they play X number of games, and there is a winner. What happened in Madrid that was counter to what promoters promise for events? Did teams not get to play the requisite number of games? Were the prizes not delivered? Was there no air? I understand players didn't get the event they WANTED or EXPECTED, but I'm not sure where they didn't get the event they were PROMISED.
There were two 7man fields less than what was advertised (no JT, no Chronic). The rest was substandard just based on previous experience, and that's why I think the MS should publish a set of minimum standards.