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Kappalanche has come to an end!!!
- Thread starter Alien_Balliztix
- Start date
Gee, IP, sounds less like concern on your part than a counter-argument. However, given your "concern" you will be happy to know you got a few of your factoids wrong.
Price increase--well, yes and no.
NXL, yes but that doesn't really effect Joe Average and in return there are significant money prizes at each event and more guaranteed play for all the incoming teams--no more possibility of 2 and out. So I guess the question becomes is it worth more to play more and compete for more?
D1--small increase I think coupled with more guaranteed play (no more 2 and out possibilitiy) and cash prizes
D2--no increase, more guaranteed play (no more 2 and out possibilitiy) [calculate the 15 minute game, no running clock against against the previous running clock version and actual on field time should be similar] and cash prizes
D3--price decrease, same as D2
5-man (Xball) price up for D2, same for D3
YG--don't know if that's down but it ain't up and it's dirt cheap
Against last year's NPPL pricing compare any of those on a per player basis or on time on field or however you like and what it boils down to is do you wanna play Xball or 7-man?
Schedules and locations--PSP dates are all set and if I thought you really planned on reffing again I'd be happy to tell you where but either way it's hardly less tentative than the recently released NPPL schedule. Oh, and you may have dyslexia as Disney isn't off the board for World Cup.
And 2 events in the summer may be fairly close together but they assure that school age players don't have to worry about conflicts with those events at least. Glass half full, half empty?
And if you look closely you will see PSP is addressing their reffing issues (while NPPL has the program, lately--all last year-- they were using newly certified refs in large numbers at each event.) Which is what it is but would suggest they aren't exactly world beaters in this area even with the best of intentions.
And the PSP has acquired XL turf which kicks the crap outta indoor/outdoor carpeting, particularly on asphalt surfaces.
And if you honestly believe any of the events are drawing non-pb related spectators in any numbers other than HB you've been on the pipe too long. The only difference in profile between an NFL parking lot and a backwoods soccer field is the view and your proximity to the nearest Burger King.
Mr. Richards,
Thank you soo much for explaining all this to me. I'm glad to see PSP has secured turf. I'm also happy to hear that their venues are set and they are in the progress of working on the ref issue. These are all good things I can only hope that the PSP will continue on this path of progress.
You must understand my caution and lack of knowledge as to the specifics of the league's progress only stem from my position as part of the general paintball audience. From my point of view the disclaimer on the recent release of the PSP schedule said
"Please be aware that this is a tentative schedule as we are still in the process of confirming venues and dates. We strongly advise everyone to hold off on booking flights and hotel rooms until these events have been confirmed."
If that doesn't say we haven't finalized our venues I don't know what does. If in the past fifteen days these venues have been finalized it has yet to be made widely known(as of the writing of this post the PSP website has only the Disney venue listed for cup).
I will say that my observation about disney has since been squashed but again was based off the most recent press release. Why Mr. Richards would you offer to inform a refferee as to the venue of the events if you knew them and yet not just simply anounce them to the general player populous?
In my big picture Mr. Richards as a team owner I have to prepare a budget each year to show sponsors, players, and myself what kind of monetary committment is going to be required. No where in my budget does a cost to play time analysis come in. Cost to exposure yes but the majority of exposure comes from media coverage and simpy being at the event. Play time does not simply translate to exposure. Winning does. Proper promotional work does. I will say that that ratio of cost to play is important for selling the format or league to Average Joe Paintballer but for those of us that consider the investment side of it a dollar more is still a dollar more. Where as you see more play time as a good thing I see more paint being shot. I see more wear and tear on equipment. I see the cost per event going up but what I don't see, and Robbo has been talking about this alot, is the sponsor money coming in just because we get more play time. Yes, when considering only in time guaranteed playing, I believe the double elimination format was not as good as the current fomat, but at the same time I believed that the amount of time and number of turn arounds in the format of last year was at least sufficient to show which team knew what they were doing. That was one of the the original goals of the xball format was it not? To create a format that through shear repetition would showcase the team that was better and nullify all other variables such as field layout discrepancies and such.
I love xball. Don't get me wrong. I love playing, coaching, and spectating xball. But as a owner and business person I have to seriously consider my bottom line. When sponsors only pay when they get exposure I will go where I am most likely to get just that. With this in mind I have to side with the place that is "closer to the nearest Burger King" because I think those burger boy big wigs may know a little more about exposure then our little endeavour.
Thank you soo much for explaining all this to me. I'm glad to see PSP has secured turf. I'm also happy to hear that their venues are set and they are in the progress of working on the ref issue. These are all good things I can only hope that the PSP will continue on this path of progress.
You must understand my caution and lack of knowledge as to the specifics of the league's progress only stem from my position as part of the general paintball audience. From my point of view the disclaimer on the recent release of the PSP schedule said
"Please be aware that this is a tentative schedule as we are still in the process of confirming venues and dates. We strongly advise everyone to hold off on booking flights and hotel rooms until these events have been confirmed."
If that doesn't say we haven't finalized our venues I don't know what does. If in the past fifteen days these venues have been finalized it has yet to be made widely known(as of the writing of this post the PSP website has only the Disney venue listed for cup).
I will say that my observation about disney has since been squashed but again was based off the most recent press release. Why Mr. Richards would you offer to inform a refferee as to the venue of the events if you knew them and yet not just simply anounce them to the general player populous?
In my big picture Mr. Richards as a team owner I have to prepare a budget each year to show sponsors, players, and myself what kind of monetary committment is going to be required. No where in my budget does a cost to play time analysis come in. Cost to exposure yes but the majority of exposure comes from media coverage and simpy being at the event. Play time does not simply translate to exposure. Winning does. Proper promotional work does. I will say that that ratio of cost to play is important for selling the format or league to Average Joe Paintballer but for those of us that consider the investment side of it a dollar more is still a dollar more. Where as you see more play time as a good thing I see more paint being shot. I see more wear and tear on equipment. I see the cost per event going up but what I don't see, and Robbo has been talking about this alot, is the sponsor money coming in just because we get more play time. Yes, when considering only in time guaranteed playing, I believe the double elimination format was not as good as the current fomat, but at the same time I believed that the amount of time and number of turn arounds in the format of last year was at least sufficient to show which team knew what they were doing. That was one of the the original goals of the xball format was it not? To create a format that through shear repetition would showcase the team that was better and nullify all other variables such as field layout discrepancies and such.
I love xball. Don't get me wrong. I love playing, coaching, and spectating xball. But as a owner and business person I have to seriously consider my bottom line. When sponsors only pay when they get exposure I will go where I am most likely to get just that. With this in mind I have to side with the place that is "closer to the nearest Burger King" because I think those burger boy big wigs may know a little more about exposure then our little endeavour.
No need for the formality, IP
Anyway, I point out some discrepancies in your first post and here is your reply. No longer are we discussing the relative merits of the 2 leagues--which you might note I suggested was primarily, for most, a simple matter of preference--now we're discussing the relative value of each league based on a new set of criteria. Which, btw, is okay with me as I could easily argue either side but again makes me wonder why you feel so invested in promoting the NPPL. (See, Pete may know you but I confess I've no clue. Sorry.)
1--nice try but if you'd read the info available at their website or even the posts here at P8ntballer you'd have known more than you purported to know in earlier posts.
2--why is this a big deal when it's the PSP but not when it's the NPPL?
3--because you're reffing claim as validation of your view struck me as silly as if a ref needed to know all the particulars today. I can be silly, too.
4--if so you are among the few but that wasn't your argument before. Your prior argument was based on cost. Realistically sponsor dollars aren't an issue for the majority of teams.
5--Seriously IP, if you ain't Pro, a well connected Semi-Pro or one of a literal handful of lower ranked teams it isn't a real consideration. But even if it is that's still your call and has next to nothing to do with, again, the vast majority of teams playing these events. Btw, if the TV thing does work and you ain't Pro don't expect that sponsor cash to come begging.
6--and when you show up their representative will ask you if you want fries with that.
It's been fun.
IP, I like you but you keep changing the terms in mid-discussion. Before you asked Pete a question and then wrote two extended posts trying to rebutt his opinion. I'm mildly curious as to why you felt the need to try and convince Pete of his "error."
Anyway, I point out some discrepancies in your first post and here is your reply. No longer are we discussing the relative merits of the 2 leagues--which you might note I suggested was primarily, for most, a simple matter of preference--now we're discussing the relative value of each league based on a new set of criteria. Which, btw, is okay with me as I could easily argue either side
but again makes me wonder why you feel so invested in promoting the NPPL. (See, Pete may know you but I confess I've no clue. Sorry.)1--nice try but if you'd read the info available at their website or even the posts here at P8ntballer you'd have known more than you purported to know in earlier posts.
2--why is this a big deal when it's the PSP but not when it's the NPPL?
3--because you're reffing claim as validation of your view struck me as silly as if a ref needed to know all the particulars today. I can be silly, too.
4--if so you are among the few but that wasn't your argument before. Your prior argument was based on cost. Realistically sponsor dollars aren't an issue for the majority of teams.
5--Seriously IP, if you ain't Pro, a well connected Semi-Pro or one of a literal handful of lower ranked teams it isn't a real consideration. But even if it is that's still your call and has next to nothing to do with, again, the vast majority of teams playing these events. Btw, if the TV thing does work and you ain't Pro don't expect that sponsor cash to come begging.
6--and when you show up their representative will ask you if you want fries with that.
It's been fun.
Mr. Richards, as much as it may seem otherwise, my purpose behind these posts was not to either promote NPPL or bring down any other league or persons; as much as try and recieve clarification and information that I may have missinterpretted or completely missed. I consider both you and Robbo to be much more in the know then myself and as such more able to clearly asses and explain the current situation then me.
I would like to point out that the original question posed to robbo was how he came to the assesment that NPPL seems vulnerable. I apologize for never clarifying that I asked that to see what he based the value of a NPPL pro slot on. I see that value as being directly correlated to the value of the league as percieved by Robbo.
I honestly do not personally know Robbo and if I have presented myself in a way that suggests I do let me be the first to say I don't.
Finally I would like to thank you both for taking the time to respond to my constant questioning.
Now to your points regarding my last post.
1. Please be very specific as to what more I would know through further reading.
2. Good question. I think that this issue stems from the simple fact that when the PSP released their tentative schedule it was presented as 100% tentative. While NPPL presented a schedule that though not 100% locked down still showed that at least they have secured their opening event venue. This provides some semblence of security in the notion that barring acts of god or politicians teams can count on HB hosting the NPPL for another year on a specific date. I will not claim to say I speak for anyone other then myself here but that is how I perceived the announcements.
3. Maybe PSP would get more and better qualified refs if they DID know the particulars today instead of shortly before the event. Did that ever occur to you? My point was if you are going to bring one person as simple as a ref into the loop, which I geuss you did not intend, then why not bring everyone? I'm not trying to be silly I'm trying to be informed. My refference to my reffing was simply to qualify that I am not just another person but some one who has worked in or around both leagues. I make no claim to being an insider by any means but at the same time do have some experience beyond reading event reports and sitting in the grandstands.
4. I'll take that as a complement and also sadly as a reflection on how far our sport still has to go. And this is my whole argument. My budget is my cost for the year. And by majority of the teams you mean all the teams that don't have to worry about it because its not there in the first place?
5. It is a concern to me and you are correct that it is my choice. I feel sorry for all the teams that struggle to make ends meet and aren't taking a good hard look at their team cashflow. But that is beside the point. The point is personally it is my goal as a owner and captain to secure solid relationships, with companies willing to invest in us, through positive and plentiful exposure. No matter if my team is novice or full on pro.
6. Sounds like some sales reps I have dealt with "You want 100 *insert brand name here* barrel plugs with that?"
I would like to point out that the original question posed to robbo was how he came to the assesment that NPPL seems vulnerable. I apologize for never clarifying that I asked that to see what he based the value of a NPPL pro slot on. I see that value as being directly correlated to the value of the league as percieved by Robbo.
I honestly do not personally know Robbo and if I have presented myself in a way that suggests I do let me be the first to say I don't.
Finally I would like to thank you both for taking the time to respond to my constant questioning.
Now to your points regarding my last post.
1. Please be very specific as to what more I would know through further reading.
2. Good question. I think that this issue stems from the simple fact that when the PSP released their tentative schedule it was presented as 100% tentative. While NPPL presented a schedule that though not 100% locked down still showed that at least they have secured their opening event venue. This provides some semblence of security in the notion that barring acts of god or politicians teams can count on HB hosting the NPPL for another year on a specific date. I will not claim to say I speak for anyone other then myself here but that is how I perceived the announcements.
3. Maybe PSP would get more and better qualified refs if they DID know the particulars today instead of shortly before the event. Did that ever occur to you? My point was if you are going to bring one person as simple as a ref into the loop, which I geuss you did not intend, then why not bring everyone? I'm not trying to be silly I'm trying to be informed. My refference to my reffing was simply to qualify that I am not just another person but some one who has worked in or around both leagues. I make no claim to being an insider by any means but at the same time do have some experience beyond reading event reports and sitting in the grandstands.
4. I'll take that as a complement and also sadly as a reflection on how far our sport still has to go. And this is my whole argument. My budget is my cost for the year. And by majority of the teams you mean all the teams that don't have to worry about it because its not there in the first place?
5. It is a concern to me and you are correct that it is my choice. I feel sorry for all the teams that struggle to make ends meet and aren't taking a good hard look at their team cashflow. But that is beside the point. The point is personally it is my goal as a owner and captain to secure solid relationships, with companies willing to invest in us, through positive and plentiful exposure. No matter if my team is novice or full on pro.
6. Sounds like some sales reps I have dealt with "You want 100 *insert brand name here* barrel plugs with that?"
Uh guys enough of the geeky thread jack about the NPPL. This here thread is for gossip purposes only. You know Romance, break ups, tragedy, treachery, money.... those kinds of things.
So quit being a tease, Fred. If you've got something juicy let's hear it--but pictures would be better.Originally posted by fred1
Uh guys enough of the geeky thread jack about the NPPL. This here thread is for gossip purposes only. You know Romance, break ups, tragedy, treachery, money.... those kinds of things.