How big a business are we?
- Thread starter Buddha 3
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Richard's post touches on just one example of why paintball companies charge so much for their products: they spend a lot. A TON. Advertising and promotion that they do costs more than you'd imagine. For a simple illustration, consider a barrel costing the retail customer $100. Obviously this is ridiculous at first glance, but then consider that higher up the food chain shops pay (a guess here) $75-85 or so so that they can sell them at a profit. Even higher up the chain is the worshipped status of sponsored player/team, who pay a price somewhere in the 40's, somewhere near the cost or even possible loss range for the company which is chalked up as an expense under testing, promotion, and advertising. Naturally for the producer to be able to do this there must be income coming in from the lower levels to allow them to keep doing this, so the happy $70 medium that could be charged for 2 barrels at a comfortable level of profit, one to the high and one to the low, is reached by the low paying the $100 and the high paying the $40. Similarly with shops you have the $300-500 mill and anno job that can be had for less if the other parties can pay the retail enough for the occasional favors to be extended, ideally to those that can go out and kick butt on the field and make other people think "Gee, I'd like to have the same look as that guy." (Yes, the GZ blood Adrenalin Angel comes to mind here.)
Oh, and of course another cost adder that everyone should hate is middlemen. Yes, in some cases they're necessary, especially for smaller fields and/or those that can't really get out and meet the actual heads of companies, so it makes sense for a lot of stores to buy the full range from one store rather than 10 or more, lamentably at a higher end price to the consumer.
How to remedy this dire situation that is undeniably killing off some if not most of the growth potential of the sport? Well, paint prices dropping due to increased demand and resulting increased production is making some of that a reality. The used gun and part market via eBay and message boards helps some, but needs to be pushed harder, out to the public where Joe Schmoe actually picks up a magazine and instead of paying new retail for a Spyder or Tippmann buying it for say $75 which he can afford rather than $200 which not only can he not realistically afford but seeing that price would discourage his friends from doing the same. Also, for the love of God, field owners, SPARE THE FRIGGIN $5-10 AND DROP YOUR PAINT PRICES, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON JUST AS A FAVOR TO YOUR PUBLIC AND EXAMPLE TO YOUR NEIGHBOR. Or, to look at it another way, to put a sharp hot knife in the neck of your competitor. Similarly, this should not be all that necessary to say but really and truly it is:
Newsflash: Macroline connections can be found at industrial supply stores for 50 cents apiece, not $6. Stop buying them at that price. Dow Corning 33 grease can be found for $6 for a 5.4 oz tube. Stop paying $8 for 2 oz. This is not hard people. Stop being easily led sheep to the "smack me over the head and take my wallet because I'm a retard that doesn't know how to look around" line.
Ahem, back to other news, now that you no doubt are paying attention to what could possibly follow that line. Another problem that exists and is somewhat hard to remedy because of the demographics of those that invest in paintball, mostly because of its image, is in fact the image and appearance of the sites. I work at a golf course, and quite honestly the reason people keep coming to golf courses and why business people associate with them is because they are in fact country clubs. They look like a million dollars because they are in fact several million dollars. They are impeccably clean, amenity rich, and comfortable in just about every way. They have green grass and scenic, well cared for land that is pretty to look at and a worthwhile view to play on, fly over, drive by, and take photos of. People want to live with one next to their houses. The buildings with the shops and offices are mansions fit for an emperor. You feel relaxed, classy, and honestly wealthy just stepping foot there. Now, if paintball facilities were as such, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that at least 20% of the golf crowd would convert to paintball in a day and stay there, and at least 50% of the people that leave paintball now would stay. We need places to become like this. Basically this would come about by combining a Millenium field with something like a ski lodge. Impossible? No. Hardly. Do just one like that, though you'd have to have someone with the money, motivation, sense of business and purpose, and one hell of an imagination to do it, and nothing better to do for that matter, and it would no doubt lead the way for others to do so, and you would see the true full potential of paintball being played by an even higher income clientele that are of the sort that right now as we speak travel the country and the world at present moment just to smack a single white ball around. If they had anything close to that kind of devotion to paintball, you would see Angels in the back of cars where golf bags are right now, and WDP hats on their heads where you see Titleist, TaylorMade, Ping, Calloway, and Pinnacle hats. And if you look around a bit, especially where I live, that's a lot of heads.
Oh, and of course another cost adder that everyone should hate is middlemen. Yes, in some cases they're necessary, especially for smaller fields and/or those that can't really get out and meet the actual heads of companies, so it makes sense for a lot of stores to buy the full range from one store rather than 10 or more, lamentably at a higher end price to the consumer.
How to remedy this dire situation that is undeniably killing off some if not most of the growth potential of the sport? Well, paint prices dropping due to increased demand and resulting increased production is making some of that a reality. The used gun and part market via eBay and message boards helps some, but needs to be pushed harder, out to the public where Joe Schmoe actually picks up a magazine and instead of paying new retail for a Spyder or Tippmann buying it for say $75 which he can afford rather than $200 which not only can he not realistically afford but seeing that price would discourage his friends from doing the same. Also, for the love of God, field owners, SPARE THE FRIGGIN $5-10 AND DROP YOUR PAINT PRICES, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON JUST AS A FAVOR TO YOUR PUBLIC AND EXAMPLE TO YOUR NEIGHBOR. Or, to look at it another way, to put a sharp hot knife in the neck of your competitor. Similarly, this should not be all that necessary to say but really and truly it is:
Newsflash: Macroline connections can be found at industrial supply stores for 50 cents apiece, not $6. Stop buying them at that price. Dow Corning 33 grease can be found for $6 for a 5.4 oz tube. Stop paying $8 for 2 oz. This is not hard people. Stop being easily led sheep to the "smack me over the head and take my wallet because I'm a retard that doesn't know how to look around" line.
Ahem, back to other news, now that you no doubt are paying attention to what could possibly follow that line. Another problem that exists and is somewhat hard to remedy because of the demographics of those that invest in paintball, mostly because of its image, is in fact the image and appearance of the sites. I work at a golf course, and quite honestly the reason people keep coming to golf courses and why business people associate with them is because they are in fact country clubs. They look like a million dollars because they are in fact several million dollars. They are impeccably clean, amenity rich, and comfortable in just about every way. They have green grass and scenic, well cared for land that is pretty to look at and a worthwhile view to play on, fly over, drive by, and take photos of. People want to live with one next to their houses. The buildings with the shops and offices are mansions fit for an emperor. You feel relaxed, classy, and honestly wealthy just stepping foot there. Now, if paintball facilities were as such, I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that at least 20% of the golf crowd would convert to paintball in a day and stay there, and at least 50% of the people that leave paintball now would stay. We need places to become like this. Basically this would come about by combining a Millenium field with something like a ski lodge. Impossible? No. Hardly. Do just one like that, though you'd have to have someone with the money, motivation, sense of business and purpose, and one hell of an imagination to do it, and nothing better to do for that matter, and it would no doubt lead the way for others to do so, and you would see the true full potential of paintball being played by an even higher income clientele that are of the sort that right now as we speak travel the country and the world at present moment just to smack a single white ball around. If they had anything close to that kind of devotion to paintball, you would see Angels in the back of cars where golf bags are right now, and WDP hats on their heads where you see Titleist, TaylorMade, Ping, Calloway, and Pinnacle hats. And if you look around a bit, especially where I live, that's a lot of heads.
P
Phoenix
Guest
Now that's what I like to hear KO. That is a fantastic idea, but I have to disagree with you on one thing. I don't see 65 year old retiree golfers switching to paintball 
I know what you are saying though. Mom's take their kids out to a field and it is nasty. The port-a-john hasn't been emptied in months and there are teenagers with piercings everywhere (not that I am against this, but mom's have different views than I do.) Could you imagine have a paved parking lot, fixed bathrooms (that stay clean), well kept grass, a lounge area, maybe a bar afterwards for the yuppies. Geez, put that in a reasonable metropolitan area and it will be good PR for our sport.
KO, I also see what you are saying about the pricng of certain things (like macrolines, oil, etc.). You and me have different viewpoints on the subject of "style." I am all about the name and lookin good. I am willin to drop the extra 15% just for the name. I think that is what is so cool about this sport. It's what I call the "girlfriend factor." If she thinks it looks great, and it works just as well, I am all for that piece of gear.
I am at a crossroads in my life. I have a HUGE passion for paintball. I can't decide if I want to fly, or go into public relations for the military. If I fly, that is what I will be doing for the rest of my life. If I go inot PR, I get out when I am 29 and still have a good 4 years to play on the pro tour Ohh well, I have 3 more years to decide.
I know what you are saying though. Mom's take their kids out to a field and it is nasty. The port-a-john hasn't been emptied in months and there are teenagers with piercings everywhere (not that I am against this, but mom's have different views than I do.) Could you imagine have a paved parking lot, fixed bathrooms (that stay clean), well kept grass, a lounge area, maybe a bar afterwards for the yuppies. Geez, put that in a reasonable metropolitan area and it will be good PR for our sport.KO, I also see what you are saying about the pricng of certain things (like macrolines, oil, etc.). You and me have different viewpoints on the subject of "style." I am all about the name and lookin good. I am willin to drop the extra 15% just for the name. I think that is what is so cool about this sport. It's what I call the "girlfriend factor." If she thinks it looks great, and it works just as well, I am all for that piece of gear.
I am at a crossroads in my life. I have a HUGE passion for paintball. I can't decide if I want to fly, or go into public relations for the military. If I fly, that is what I will be doing for the rest of my life. If I go inot PR, I get out when I am 29 and still have a good 4 years to play on the pro tour
Ohh well, I have 3 more years to decide.
15%, ok, maybe that's affordable and reasonable. But 150 to 1500% is inexcusable, period, and bad for the sport because it sets the precedent that all other items can and will be marked up because supposedly we don't mind because the rest of our stuff is in fact expensive albeit justifiably so. Life is complicated and expensive. Paintball should not be.
Oh, it's not just moms...it's anyone. Do you really find it pleasant to have ants, poison ivy, etc. on you? Do paintball stores really measure up to golf or ski shops, or fishing and hunting shops? Do parking lots at paintball fields typically have over 50% BMW's, Porsches, Ferraris, Bentleys, etc? Do businessmen repeatedly host and impress clients and potential partners at paintball fields? Are paintball fields a beacon of the communities in which they reside?
The answer to all of those is obviously no, and if we're going to get anywhere towards where paintball should be, we should be trying to change all of the answers to yes.
The answer to all of those is obviously no, and if we're going to get anywhere towards where paintball should be, we should be trying to change all of the answers to yes.
P
Phoenix
Guest
Yeah, but what are the alternatives? Look at the Avalanche JT barrel compared to the regualr one (both SS). On Pbgear.com the Avs barrel is $5 more. I mean, if someone is a die hard Av fan, then what is wrong with it? Paintball is still in it's infancy. Companies have to make a buck, and there aren't enough "outside companies" making markers. When Nike and Addidas start making paintball equipment then it will drive the price of JT and WDP down. Until then, we have to take what we have. I, for one, am a very loyal customer. I received GREAT service from Warped Sportz. I am going to get a lot of aftermarket products from the because of it (except the drop forward, eeewww that is nasty! ). Likewise with Raven. I will pay the little extra money to support them.
). Likewise with Raven. I will pay the little extra money to support them.
paint prices
Another thing to note on the "Everyone has to make a buck" kick is that at most sites the paiint is the only place they make money. Which is the reason that paint prices are inflated.
It sucks, but the guys n galls who run sites do need to make a living
Richard
Another thing to note on the "Everyone has to make a buck" kick is that at most sites the paiint is the only place they make money. Which is the reason that paint prices are inflated.
It sucks, but the guys n galls who run sites do need to make a living
Richard
I think we're skirting around the real issue.
Yes, gear is expensive, and so is the paint, it is a reason to not play, I agree.
But I don't believe for one minute that that figure of 6 million players includes the 'one day only rentals'. So they have to be left out of the equation.
In this case, it means that there are 6 million people out there who at least own some rudimentary gear (say a simple marker, or at least a set of goggles), and they only spend that 83 bucks a year. Equalling about 1 or 2 days of playing. Anybody who is willing to spend money on a marker will want to play more than once or twice a year! Unless there is something that puts them off. Could it be that there's hardly any place for them to play? I know a lot of sites do not cater to walk ons. Could it be they are shot to sh*t by the more experienced people out there? Some sites don't care about that. Fact remains that somewhere something is fundamentally wrong. UNLESS the vast majority of those 6 million customers buy one of them cheap plastic 20 bucks markers, and buy m,aybe 500 paintballs a year to do some shooting in their backyard (the walmart segment). Or perhaps this 6 million customers figure is a gross overstatement, and it should read 6 million transactions (many companies count the transactions instead of their true customer base, that way it appears that their target audience is larger than it really is, making them more interesting for potential investors)...meaning that this 6 million figure is spread out over a smaller group of returning customers. In this case it would make sense because not every purchase is a marker...things like a new set of o rings for your tanks is a lot cheaper than WDP latest toy. Also, us having a smaller customer base than we like to think we have would explain why we are not on television for instance...
This is starting to get interesting...
Yes, gear is expensive, and so is the paint, it is a reason to not play, I agree.
But I don't believe for one minute that that figure of 6 million players includes the 'one day only rentals'. So they have to be left out of the equation.
In this case, it means that there are 6 million people out there who at least own some rudimentary gear (say a simple marker, or at least a set of goggles), and they only spend that 83 bucks a year. Equalling about 1 or 2 days of playing. Anybody who is willing to spend money on a marker will want to play more than once or twice a year! Unless there is something that puts them off. Could it be that there's hardly any place for them to play? I know a lot of sites do not cater to walk ons. Could it be they are shot to sh*t by the more experienced people out there? Some sites don't care about that. Fact remains that somewhere something is fundamentally wrong. UNLESS the vast majority of those 6 million customers buy one of them cheap plastic 20 bucks markers, and buy m,aybe 500 paintballs a year to do some shooting in their backyard (the walmart segment). Or perhaps this 6 million customers figure is a gross overstatement, and it should read 6 million transactions (many companies count the transactions instead of their true customer base, that way it appears that their target audience is larger than it really is, making them more interesting for potential investors)...meaning that this 6 million figure is spread out over a smaller group of returning customers. In this case it would make sense because not every purchase is a marker...things like a new set of o rings for your tanks is a lot cheaper than WDP latest toy. Also, us having a smaller customer base than we like to think we have would explain why we are not on television for instance...
This is starting to get interesting...
Yes, definately eliminate the one day rental people from the equation, because although they contribute a little money to the sport, they're not a useful indicator of progress, spending demographics, etc. Sites that don't cater to walk on play? That's a big thing holding us back for sure, because if people could play at will, on impulse, just like people play golf, bike, skateboard, etc, then we'd have more growth for sure. As for the "paintball is in its infancy" excuse, it has STAYED in its infancy because that excuse is made and improvements and progression haven't been. "Paintball can be an expensive sport" is another mantra that props up various parties too numerous to mention for beating the ever loving hell out of people for money, like FPO fields charging $80+ a case for $55 paint that they buy at $30. Don't think you, I, and others know this? It's that sort of thing that IS THE VERY REASON PEOPLE ONLY PLAY ONCE A YEAR!!! If someone treated me that way at a bar, hell, I'd never drink out. Oh wait, they already do that with liquor taxes...but even that's only $4-5 for crying out loud. You stick newbies with the highest bills you can shove on them, and you bet they're never going to play enough to be anything but that. This is killing our sport at its very root. But of course try telling any mass rental field owner that. Unfortunately with income, property, state, federal, and municipal taxes, utilities, etc. they're often stuck in such a no-win situation. You have many, many fields that no one who can legimately afford those kinds of prices on a regular enough basis to become proficient would likely set foot near anyway. They'd stay at the coffee shop, mall, or golf course instead. Hence you see how many friends you'll know in paintball that are broke because someone making more than they do probably wouldn't be all that likely to be playing it. Such is a deadlock crisis that I'd rather not see our sport in, but somehow for some reason rather than what we need, owners that would otherwise be building Hiltons who can afford to have a first class field that is cheap enough to be competitive in the short run with patience to defer major profit to long run by volume, we have those that would be building hardware stores or less who are in the position of overcharge or go broke. Terrible, isn't it?