Hot Potato!

[Magued]

Top 18

Im asking myself.
If it was the other way around and NXL would had got a good Tv deal with Dick Clark and NPPL was struggling. Do anybody think that the pro teams in NPPL would have been offered a spot?
I dont think so...

The way I see it is that the NXL teams have to go the long way as everybody else and qualify for the pro spot in NPPL. They invested alot of money in NXL and it failed. Thats a risk they took to be part of the possible benifit the NXL could have delivered.
Or simply buy a spot. I can imagine it would have cost us a lot of money to be a NXL team if the tables was turned.

Regarding the MS teams. Why should they get a spot Nick? I cant understand what you mean?

Magued

 

[Steve Hancock]

Top 18

Originally posted by Magued
Regarding the MS teams. Why should they get a spot Nick? I cant understand what you mean?

No reason at all, unless the Millenium merge with the NPPL. But even then, the Millenium "pro" div is equivalent to US Div1 isn't it? And any way, are there any Euro teams (who aren't already in the top 24) who could be described as being in the top 24 teams in the world? The Millenium have got little to bring to the table, aside from convenence, so the NPPL could move in and take over without much difficulty, and so need not offer the anything much. So i doubt the millenium could secure any spots for their teams anyway, and they'd be leaving themselves out in the cold if they tried to push their luck. Although it would be good if the new world order included some Euro events.

 

[Robbo]

Top 18

Originally posted by Magued
Im asking myself.
If it was the other way around and NXL would had got a good Tv deal with Dick Clark and NPPL was struggling. Do anybody think that the pro teams in NPPL would have been offered a spot?
I dont think so...

The way I see it is that the NXL teams have to go the long way as everybody else and qualify for the pro spot in NPPL. They invested alot of money in NXL and it failed. Thats a risk they took to be part of the possible benifit the NXL could have delivered.
Or simply buy a spot. I can imagine it would have cost us a lot of money to be a NXL team if the tables was turned.

Regarding the MS teams. Why should they get a spot Nick? I cant understand what you mean?

Magued

Mag, it's best if you don't ask Nick anything coz I can predict with some degree of accuracy how it will go, it will start with huge long posts of quasi-justification coupled with Nick's unique brand of rationale that only Nick sees fit to quailfy and will end up with him saying, 'Let's agree to differ' with a tone that suggests you are not intelligent enough to comprehend what he is offering up as an explanation........
In reality Nick cannot justify any MS team getting a spot whatsoever other than those MS teams who earned their NPPL stripes already.

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Originally posted by Gyroscope
OK, so the rankings for the NPPL are:
1 San Diego Dynasty
2 Sacramento XSV
3 Portland Naughty Dogs
4 Oakland Empire
4 San Francisco Avalanche
6 DC Arsenal
7 Stockholm Joy
8 New England Hurricanes
9 LA Infamous
10 Miami Rage
11 Chicago Evil Factory
12 London Nexus
13 London Tigers
14 HB Redz Sedition
15 OC Bushwackers
16 California Ironmen
17 Bob Long's Assassins
18 XS NRG

And the rankings for the NXL are:
1Boston Red Legion
2Oakland Assassins
2Chicago AfterShock
4Baltimore Trauma
5LA Ironmen
5Detroit Strange
7Philadelphia Americans
8San Diego Legacy
9New York Xtreme
10Miami Effect

It seems to me there are two league rankings missing: Millennium and PSP. They are considered to be major league after all.

Millennium

1. XSV
2. Stockholm Ignition
3. Menace
4. Tontons Flingueurs
5. JT All Stars - Europe
6. Nexus UK
7. Phoenix Russia
8. Shockwave UK
9. Consilium Dei
10.Copenhagen Ducks
11.Powertrip
12.Joy Division
13.Cyclone
14.Syndicate
15.London Tigers
16.Arsenal USA
17.Birmingham Phoenix
18.Doriane Golak
19.Hellwood
20.UK Jaguars
21.Bushwackers
22.Avalanche
23.Dynasty
24.Conxion
25.Ironmen
26.Porn Kings

PSP

1. Dynasty
2. XSV
3. Naughty Dogs
4. Infamous
5. Avalanche
6. Ultimate
7. Joy Division
8. Miami Rage/Str8killas
9. Outlaws

Since it's virtually impossible to come up with a fair formula then it's just a question of individual judgment.

I think a good ranking would include, in alphabetical order, the following teams:

1. Aftershock
2. Americans
3. Arsenal
4. Assassins
5. Avalanche
6. Dynasty
7. Ignition
8. Infamous
9. Ironmen
10. Joy
11. JT Allstars Europe
12. Legacy
13. Russian Legion
14. Menace Norway
15. Miami Effect
16. Naughty Dogs
17. Nexus
18. NY Xtreme
19. Rage
20. Strange
21. Tigers
22. Tontons
23. Trauma
24. XSV

I think these represent the 24 best in the world. I think there could be quite a few teams that wouldn't have resources available to compete in the new world league therefore I believe this would end up at around 16 teams. 16 would be the ideal number IMO for the double-elimination scheme it ought to be with two fields running concurrently up until finals day.

 

[Chicago]

Top 18

Originally posted by Magued
The way I see it is that the NXL teams have to go the long way as everybody else and qualify for the pro spot in NPPL. They invested alot of money in NXL and it failed. Thats a risk they took to be part of the possible benifit the NXL could have delivered.
Or simply buy a spot. I can imagine it would have cost us a lot of money to be a NXL team if the tables was turned.

There's what's fair, and there's what has a chance of actually happening.

If the NXL folks don't get NPPL spots, and have to pay big bucks for them, it would make more sense for them to just carry on with the NXL. They could BUY airtime for what it would cost them to merge.

I think this whole debate is becoming more and more rhetorical as time goes on. I just don't see reunification happening.

 

[Robbo]

Re: Top 18

Originally posted by Chicago
There's what's fair, and there's what has a chance of actually happening.
If the NXL folks don't get NPPL spots, and have to pay big bucks for them, it would make more sense for them to just carry on with the NXL. They could BUY airtime for what it would cost them to merge.
I think this whole debate is becoming more and more rhetorical as time goes on. I just don't see reunification happening.

Chi, as soon as you begin to appreciate that commonsense and the 'right' thing to do are not the reasons why all this is happening (if it were then it would have happened long ago) and has everything to do with financial necessity then you might begin to understand the inevitablity of it all.
The details are really all that need to be resolved.

If this integration doesn't go ahead then Paintball's hierarchy will assume a level of stupidity that would surprise even me ..... and that would take some doing.

 

[Chicago]

Re: Re: Top 18

Originally posted by Robbo
Chi, as soon as you begin to appreciate that commonsense and the 'right' thing to do are not the reasons why all this is happening (if it were then it would have happened long ago) and has everything to do with financial necessity then you might begin to understand the inevitablity of it all.
The details are really all that need to be resolved.

If this integration doesn't go ahead then Paintball's hierarchy will assume a level of stupidity that would surprise even me ..... and that would take some doing.

I know what you're saying, but I don't see the financial necessity playing out the same way you do.

I thinkwe can agree on one base assumption: The vast majority of companies in the industry do not have the financial means to support two leagues.

The natural conclusion from this is that the leagues must unify.

However, that's only the immediate natural conclusion. I don't think that conclusion stands up to thinking a few moves down the road. Anyone considering whether or not to participate in a unification has to ask themselves the question "What happens if there is no unification?" Once there is an answer to that question, that person will then ask "Which of those two situations is better for me?"

So, answering the first question: "What happens if there is no unification?" Looking at our base assumption, paintball companies will be forced to choose to support one league or the other.

And when answering the second question, that's where I think this whole unification thing breaks down: PSP is already quite accustomed to many sponsors already choosing to support just NPPL. So if they refuse to unify.... they're just doing what they were already doing last year.

And if the situation is as dire as some are saying it is, what happens if those same people with an interest in PSP follow through with only being able to support one league, and only sponsor PSP? That would put NPPL in a whole world of hurt. Or worse, what happens if other sponsors, having just gotten back from Miami, realize that World Cup is *THE* place to sell a bunch of stuff?

I agree that many in the industry WANT one league. I'm not convinced that NPPL can convince PSP that they're better off unifying on NPPLs terms instead of trying to fight it out. Actually, I'm pretty convinced they won't.

I think you'll agree that there is a whole lot of pride involved here, and that's a significant obstacle to overcome, and I just can't see NPPL making an offer attactive enough to the PSP side to overcome the pride issues.

Anyone on the PSP side will have this decision to make:

- I can unify, and pretty much surrender to control of Pure Promotions, in exchange for some amount of consideration in Pro spots and an increase in vendor fees.
- I can not unify, pay lower vendor fees essentially to myself, and see where we're at next year.

The only reason you wouldn't do the second is if you believed that NPPL had a very good chance of continuing and being successful with the ESPN deal, AND that you couldn't create your own television opportunity, leaving you in a worse position next year. And I think as a matter of pride, these guys are going to think that if they just don't support NPPL at all this year, they stand a good chance of ending up on top.

 

[BlitZZkrieg Mueller]

correct me if I am wrong, ...

BUT as far as the NPPL went on this year, 18 Pro teams fought to be a NPPL considered Proteam, some failed by points and are playing semipro or not next year, some teams in semi pro fought a hard battle to become a NPPL considered Pro team for next year. Corect me if thats not right, so far.

AS PSP team some played it, because they or their sponsor considered it of being their spot of choice.

2 different series, different goals in many ways, now it seems that NPPL has had more success in being regarded as the more popular series of both. Even TV changed of being on the PSP events (not even aired so far) to covering the NPPL events. Suprisingly (more or less) voices getting louder on the former 150% convinced PSP guys of having an urge (in the name of paintball) of having both series to merge. As mentioned before and in different threads, I cant see the reason why there should be a merger, as well as I cant see any benefit for the NPPL at all. Might be it is my limited view from my German uboat periscope, but getting back to the topic, the 18 pro teams made it top 18 by fighting for it. So it wouldnt be fair in a genereal sportman sense to bring in some teams who even didnt play NPPL at all. What is the semipro battle then worth?

 

[Chicago]

I thought about this more, and I'm even more convinced this isn't going to happen.

If and when a league successfully makes the jump to being a MARKETABLE sport (money coming in from outside the industry), most likely in conjunction with a TV deal, there are going to be two groups: Those with an ownership interest in the league, and those without an ownership interest. Those without an ownership interest - whether they supported the league until then or not - will be paying whatever the vendor/sponsor fees are to continue to be involved. And those WITH an ownership interest will benefit from the newfound flow of money.


If PSP chooses not to merge, and they fail, they're no worse off than if they merge without an ownership interest. If they choose not to merge and they succeeed, they are certainly better off than if they try to merge. so the only way for a merger to happen is for Pure Promotions to give the PSP folks enough of an ownership interest for their likely payoff in the event of a mergere to be greater than their likely payoff in the event of nomerger, and I just don't see Pure Promotions making that offer. It's a classic case of one side being convinced that they are worth far more than the other side is convinced they are worth.

 

[Robbo]

Re: Re: Re: Top 18

Originally posted by Chicago
I know what you're saying, but I don't see the financial necessity playing out the same way you do...........

...........The only reason you wouldn't do the second is if you believed that NPPL had a very good chance of continuing and being successful with the ESPN deal, AND that you couldn't create your own television opportunity, leaving you in a worse position next year. And I think as a matter of pride, these guys are going to think that if they just don't support NPPL at all this year, they stand a good chance of ending up on top.

Chi, I'm not going to break any confidences here but what I can say is this, both sides have already shown a huge amount of compromise with preliminary decisions being made as to certain aspects that would never have been dreamed of a year back.
This applies to both sides.
Now I don't want to go into actual details ( I don't know all of them anyway) other than to say that this degree of compromise from both sides signals something quite significant that falls outside of the reasoning of your post above.
It tells me that Pure Promotions / NPPL and the PSP / NXL have integration at the top of their agenda rather than seeing it as an opportunity to impose their particular brand on the other or in fact to use it as a gambit.
I think some of the guys on the PSP (in fact I know some of them are) tired with the management and organizing the PSP circuit, they all have their own businesses to run anyway so the lure of keeping the PSP running isn't such an attractive a proposition as you make out.
But, all this is speculation and eventually we will all find out soon enough, I just hope they do integrate and they choose 24 teams to represent the best of the best and if they want to cut down to a more manageable size then this should be done over the course of 2006 (relegation) and not by some arbitrary decision under the premise of a 'necessary sacrifice'.