Hired Guns--Redux

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Ledz
1--As for answering your question. I've read it and it's your opinion. What do you want people to say?

2--Does it encourage sandbagging?

1--Ledz, for starters, a question isn't an opinion. I haven't expressed an opinion despite what Beaks thinks. There really is nothing to read into the question. Fact: In numerous past threads players have expressed opinions about the practice of bringing in "guests" or "ringers" and the impact it can have on an event. Fact: Guns for Hire is an organized version sponsored by you guys of essentially doing precisely that; hiring guests/ringers. Given the past views expressed in these forums isn't it a reasonable question to ask how peeps feel about this new version of an old practice?
It seems y'all have attributed some viewpoint to me based solely on my asking the question. An erroneous viewpoint I might add given my oft expressed views on sandbagging in general.
2--so you're against it, is that what you're saying?


Ant said
The question is...can a pro player actually be a sandbagger if they're playing in the top division in a league where there are no rules about pro players anyway?

Ant--that's disingenuous--and it isn't the question. The Guns for Hire offer isn't exclusive of "top" teams, it's for everyone. The fact it has so far only occurred with "top" teams is irrelevant to the basic question. Nah, na nah na nah nah

 

[Smally85]

My opinion on the matter: “Sandbagging” as mentioned above is when a whole team places itself in a lower division to that which they should be playing in order to win something. By bringing in two or three “ringers” you aren’t really sandbagging on the grounds that they aren’t going to be able to make that much difference, bringing in a few players won’t mean you instantly start winning games, the original players won’t be able to play effectively with the new “ringers” and it will take time to get to know each others styles of play. As Ant said in the case of the Bullets their “ringers” trained with the prior to the tournament and then helped them along at the tournament. A couple of pros simply getting dropped into an average team won’t instantly create a killing machine.
Having said that, putting 3 pros into a bottom division team will make a huge difference. In my opinion this is because they will be playing against teams that have little experience and will probably just be outclassed. In this sort of case the only thing the teams will learn is how to get shot, the team who the “ringers” play for won’t learn much, other than how if feels to win every game and maybe they will pick up a few techniques.
As mentioned above if a few GFH are hired by a top division team to play for them it can’t be sandbagging, what are you going to do? Create another division at the top so the pro players can play there instead? If Nexus came along to the D7s and wanted to play they’d get put in Div1 and they’d be playing against the other Am teams that normally play that division because that is the highest they can go. (I know there are some Pro teams who play the D7s this is just an example.)
Planet has found a good marketing idea here and it’s up to them if they want to exploit it, they are a business after all and the idea is to make money…
Personally I wouldn’t like to employ the GFH to play a tournament with my team as I believe they would be more helpful at training. The tournaments are a test of how our training is going and if the GFH play for us in a tournament what are we proving? Perhaps as a coaching sort of role this would be more helpful to some teams? I am personally against bringing in “ringers” to improve a teams standing at a tournament, the money would be better spent on training in my opinion.

 

[eBlader]

For some reason I assumed the teams they played with would play in the top division. Don't know where that came from...the spaghetti that is my brain, probably. So I concede there, but you do keep denying that you're expressing an opinion while simultaneously expressing opinions about 'ringers' to strengthen your argument that you're not actually expressing an opinion

 

[psycho]

elo?

You mean like Bullets who had Oli Lang and Mr U guesting with them? hmmm

Originally posted by Beaker
So when you have 3 universally liked "good guys" from the UK circuit do it it's all OK.

When Consellium Dei did it at Campaign a few years back they were nearly lynched.

...just a thought.

I really don't care, but i do think that a team doesn't really get anything from having a pro simply play on the day and if a team is actually serious about getting better and using this (worthwhile) service from Planet and GFH to do it - they should be like Bullets and have training the weekend before with time to really go through everything properly. I think on the actual day they will be too focused on playing to really get a lot from it past having some cool guys kicking around their safe area.

 

[eBlader]

out of interest, were oli and pete guesting for the bullets in malaga?

 

[psycho]

not malaga, was one of the partner milleniums, think it was norway. Oli played for Entourage in Malaga.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Ant Jones
1--For some reason I assumed the teams they played with would play in the top division. Don't know where that came from...the spaghetti that is my brain, probably.
2--So I concede there, but you do keep denying that you're expressing an opinion while simultaneously expressing opinions about 'ringers' to strengthen your argument that you're not actually expressing an opinion

1-- 0 for 1
2--there is NO argument. I framed the original question a particular way, I confess, but only because of the meaning y'all attach to certain words. And, yes, I am trying to get peeps to respond but the fact y'all infer some personal opinion of mine is based completely on how you feel about it. If y'all didn't really view ringers as a bad thing we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? I win, I win, I win!

 

[Beaker]

elo?

Originally posted by psycho
You mean like Bullets who had Oli Lang and Mr U guesting with them? hmmm

Did you actually read the post.

That's why Ant and I both mentioned Bullets in our examples

They didn't simply hire Olli and Mr U for the event as GFH *might* be. Bullets flew them over, has 2 full training weekends with the guys and then played the event as a whole squad - now to me that is a fair and good way to use the Pro's knowledge to actually try and better your own team and I'm all for UK teams taking the more long term approach of get GFH involved on a trianing level.


My opinion:

If a team wants to improve and get long term benefit then have a GFH training weekend, maybe employ them the tournament after to keep you on your toes. (Exactly what Bullets did )

If a team wants a quick fix / do something a bit different then use GFH for just a tournament but I don't think they'll get much long term benefit out of it.

 

[stongle]

Interesting economic experiment, does a UK player actually have an intrinsic or monetary value?

Removal of roster restrictions (which suck anyway), would allow and promote the development of a player market; with the best players actually developing a tangible value through mercenary behaviour. Why think small, it should be Guns For Hire PLC. You could branch out and start performing "wet work" at scenario days.

However, this could lead to teams entering into a player "arms-race" at events without any roster restrictions.

Perhaps a parallel exists between this and Trigger Bounce / Gun cheats. Whatever is subjective or difficult to enforce we should just make legal. What next bayonets?

 

[psycho]

and?

Quote "Training weekend" , does this involve them playin the tournamnet as well?..