Has XSV changed the face of tournament Paintball forever?

[PSPGeoff]

Let me put it this way:

If the reffing is sub-par, XSV plays dirty and wins and Rage plays dirty and does better than they would if the reffing were better.
If the reffing is comparatively good, XSV doesn't play dirty and still wins, while Rage still plays dirty and turns in their custom middle-of-the-road performance.

Rage plays dirty because that's what they do. XSV plays dirty because the present state of the reffing virtually demands they play dirty if they want to win.

Is it possible that you are asserting XSV is the dirtiest team ever to distract everyone from realizing that their dirty play is necessitated by the sub-par reffing provided by the league you are apparently closely affiliated with? Is it possibly in any way meant to distract people from realizing that you sponsor one of the historically dirtiest teams in paintball, on AND off the field?

Your assuming alot here, I believe that the fact of the reffing being sub-par this year has been discussed enough... it has been... but to assume that XSV would win if it was good is silly.... they are a dirty team and use dirty tactics... Would they win if they didnt play that way?? We dont really know.. but probably not.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

OMG

Some of you guys are just completely paranoid

-XSV winning because the refs suck?
-At least 1 player on every team using cheat programming?
-team owners not being aware what equipment their players use?

You guys are the ones that make all the young players in the lower divisions cheat like mofus, because they keep hearing how much the Pros cheat... and mistakenly believe that is what they need to do, to reach the highest level.

The reality is, that Pros cheat less than players in most other divisions (at national level anyway) - because they are scrutinised more carefully by officials, monitored closer by media and spectators - and - not least, have more skill..... and believe what you want, the SKILL is why they are Pros - not their ability to cheat.

I am so sick of people perpetuating the fantasy about Pros being the biggest cheaters in the sport - when time and time again, it is in the divisions below Pro that people get caught...

... believing that is an indication of the Pros being better at hiding their cheats, rather than taking that statistic at face value, is downright stupid.

No, all Pros are not completely "clean" - but by far most are absolutely cleaner than the players in the next couple of divisions down!

Nick

 

[Chicago]

Well, I obviously think XSV wins either way.

As for people having boards the rest of the team doesn't know about, I've run into players playing with cheater boards THEY didn't even know about, although I wouldn't expect that at the Pro level, esp considering it's pretty hard to use a designer cheat board without knowing you have it.

But, I think the only thing more stupid than 'perpetuating the perception that all pros cheat' is perpetuating the myth that the reason the lower divisions cheat is because they think the pros cheat. The lower divisions cheat for the same reason the pros do - because they think it will work. Even if the Pros were angels, lower divisions would still cheat as long as they perceived an advantage from doing so.

I do honestly believe that more than half of the NPPL Pro teams have at least illegal breakout modes on their guns, and I would guess that 14-16 of them do. The main reason I said 18 is although I know Robbo wouldn't stand for cheat boards in his teams guns, I wanted to make the point that like NPPL, Robbo doesn't REALLY know what his players are using unless he's giving them boards himself and checking to make sure the ones provided are the ones in the guns.

And I also believe that the majority of Pros cheat to one degree or another. I don't think you can watch any Pro team play NPPL and not see players who know they are hit stay in the game anyway, although I'd consider most of that closer to a foul than really cheating. But there's also no shortage of players who will try and talk the refs into making bad calls that favor them or who will intentionally create game confusion to win games, XSV and Rage being good examples. And you can complain about 'making the pros out to be cheaters' all you'd like, but ... hell, do you WATCH any of these games?

 

[duffistuta]

Gun cheat wise, it's all a tissue of mistrust fed by malicious rumours and lies for the most part - together with 'legal' guns being faster than most people realise (as they are not and have not been semi-auto for years).

One Pro captain who absolutely everybody believes has his team run cheat guns told us that he absolutely did not, but also told us that he 'knows' Nexus runs cheat guns as he's watched them play. Robbo 'knows' his team (as an entity and as a rule, obviously there may be individuals who do stuff he doesn't know about) does not, but believes most of the others do, and so on and so on. Everyone 'knows' Dynasty runs breakout mode - they say they don't. Everyone 'knows' XSV has cheat guns - they say they don't. Believing Telford, or Fraige, or Robbo, or whoever, is just a personal call because ultimately no-one really knows what goes on in other teams.

It's all a horrible mess where everyone thinks everyone is is both a cheat and a liar and the NPPL has to sort it out as currently it makes a mockery of everything.

 

[Robbo]

Gun cheat wise, it's all a tissue of mistrust fed by malicious rumours and lies for the most part - together with 'legal' guns being faster than most people realise (as they are not and have not been semi-auto for years).

One Pro captain who absolutely everybody believes has his team run cheat guns told us that he absolutely did not, but also told us that he 'knows' Nexus runs cheat guns as he's watched them play. Robbo 'knows' his team (as an entity and as a rule, obviously there may be individuals who do stuff he doesn't know about) does not, but believes most of the others do, and so on and so on. Everyone 'knows' Dynasty runs breakout mode - they say they don't. Everyone 'knows' XSV has cheat guns - they say they don't. Believing Telford, or Fraige, or Robbo, or whoever, is just a personal call because ultimately no-one really knows what goes on in other teams.

It's all a horrible mess where everyone thinks everyone is is both a cheat and a liar and the NPPL has to sort it out as currently it makes a mockery of everything.

Now ya see that's what I hate, being grouped in with the cheating mofo's coz NO markers on my team have cheat boards.
Never have done, I hope I NEVER will, I admit I got close to allowing them but in the end I pulled back.

Nick, actually I will take that as a bit of an insult since you know me, you know my stance but then again, I took it is a deep insult when what Duff is referring to happened, a captain of another CPL pro team once told me that because three balls hit him hard as the teams broke out in a game of Xball a few years back that we MUST be using cheat modes.

Ya know it hardly makes it all worthwhile when I stand by my guns (and have been tempted to go to the dark side) and do not allow cheat markers and every damned fukker out there believes you do anyway.

It's as though the whole culture of Paintball is not only predisposed to cheating and cheaters but it's also so cynical so as to disbelieve anybody who doesn't cheat.

Every time I refused my guys requests to go over, (and one occasion recently I got real close to allowing it with my player's arguments becoming more compelling by the week but didn't after talking to Duff and Ledz) the arguments I was using for not using them became weaker and weaker.
In the light of a weak position in the NPPL, it became apparent that I had to entertain the idea of having cheat markers and try to be competitive over there or maintain my moral high ground and watch my team go down.
I ain't for one second attributing the entire poor showing in the NPPL on my decision to stay clean but I ain't silly enough to believe it has no effect.

So what am I left with after all this time in resisting cheat markers on Nexus?

Do I seriously think that if Nexus gets relegated from the NPPL people are gonna say, 'Hey weren't that the team that played clean and took a stance'?
Are they hell, they are gonna be commenting, 'That Brit team sucked man, they were sh!t'.
That realisation makes me grind my teeth a little.

And Duff, you know full well we were clean from day one .... and still are. If any one of my players goes out onto any field of play with a cheat board and I find out - well, let's just say they are gonna have problems, very real problems with me.
It would undermine everything I have stood for and humiliate me, and I really ain't in the business of being humilated..I would react badly to that, extremely badly !!!

Whether you believe me or not is out of my control but what seems to be the biggest tragedy is, some won't as is evidenced by Nick's and others comments

I have come to the conclusion that my rejection of cheat markers for Nexus in real terms means Jack 'fakkin' Sh!t because it has hurt my team in the US, people don't believe me anyway and whilst I may sit at home with a smile on my face knowing I was a bigger man, the other teams laugh in my face as the judges run around the field trying to catch them....Paintball, don't ya just love it.......

 

[duffistuta]

And Duff, you know full well we were clean from day one .... and still are. If any one of my players goes out onto any field of play with a cheat board and I find out - well, let's just say they are gonna have problems, very real problems with me.

But that's my point - what I know is immaterial. I know you - the 500,000 people watching the ESPN don't. And if Paintball kicks off big time then, Barry Bonds-style, accusations will start flying about every single team - and without the means to prove guns are or aren't legal, the whole thing descends into farce.

Your protestations do not matter jack **** to people who don't know you. Why should they?

Lemme give you another hypothetical...You ask Rocky Knuth, for argument's sake, if his team have cheat boards. He says, 'Pete, on my kids' lives, we don't'.

You will believe him cos you are a man of your word and you will take him as a man of his.

And I bet if you asked him, that's what he'd say.

Now, In The Know has been on these boards before and claimed that he knows The Dogs have cheat boards. You know In The Know and you trust him.

So where do you go from there?

Words don't matter any more - effective regulations do. We aren't playing little league now.

 

[Robbo]

But that's my point - what I know is immaterial. I know you - the 500,000 people watching the ESPN don't. And if Paintball kicks off big time then, Barry Bonds-style, accusations will start flying about every single team - and without the means to prove guns are or aren't legal, the whole thing descends into farce.

Your protestations do not matter jack **** to people who don't know you. Why should they?

Lemme give you another hypothetical...You ask Rocky Knuth, for argument's sake, if his team have cheat boards. He says, 'Pete, on my kids' lives, we don't'.

You will believe him cos you are a man of your word and you will take him as a man of his.

And I bet if you asked him, that's what he'd say.

Now, In The Know has been on these boards before and claimed that he knows The Dogs have cheat boards. You know In The Know and you trust him.

So where do you go from there?

Words don't matter any more - effective regulations do. We aren't playing little league now.

I know Rocky pretty well and if he told me that on his kid's lives he doesn't use cheat boards then I would believe him regardless of what 'In the know' said.
Rocky is a stand up guy and I trust him and if he did use cheat markers (and I am not in any way implying he does) he would more than likely say, 'Pete, we do use them but can u keep it on the low down please mate' instead of swearing on his kid's life he doesnt.

I obviously know 'In the know' as well but I would just have to put his comments down to him being mistaken, nothing more.

I maybe too trusting but I like to think I am an ok judge of character and on that basis, people all use words to communicate and in some cases lie but I will make my own judgments as to the validity of what they say based upon my knowledge and experience of the them...but I take your point, unless you know these people then how can you possibly have that inside take on matters....

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Nick, actually I will take that as a bit of an insult since you know me, you know my stance but then again, I took it is a deep insult when what Duff is referring to happened, a captain of another us once, three balls hit him hard as we broke out, and on that basis he told me, we MUST be using cheat modes.

What is an insult buddy?? - nothing in that post was aimed at you??

Anyway.... I'll tell you all why very very few Pro teams have cheat modes.... because it would get out very quickly!

Players change teams or get cut all the time, and there is NO WAY that could happen without more than the odd whisper about cheat modes... if most Pros utilised these modes, the sport would be awash with stories about it - and it is not.

Chicago saying that 14-16 Pro teams in the NPPL have illegal breakout modes is just crazy - sorry dude - but it is... what is your foundation for making such a statement?

All those teams have players that work in the industry, all those teams (well most) have very prominent captains that exercise a great degree of control on their teams... and you honestly believe that all those teams use illegal modes, while cutting players left, right and centre, without ANY Pro player standing up and saying "my ex team uses cheat modes"..... in a sport where there would be no legal repercussions for saying so?

I think people enjoy a good conspiracy theory, and that things are far from as bad as most make it out to be.... paintball has always been like that - no matter what the topic - things tend to get overdramatised because people think they seem more interesting that way.

And yes - even when we are talking ordinary in-game cheating, like wiping and playing on, I think most Pro teams do it less than teams in Semi-Pro and Division 1.

They just get noticed more when they do it.

Nick

 

[Robbo]

What is an insult buddy?? - nothing in that post was aimed at you??

Anyway.... I'll tell you all why very very few Pro teams have cheat modes.... because it would get out very quickly!

Players change teams or get cut all the time, and there is NO WAY that could happen without more than the odd remark from a disgruntled player about cheat modes... if most Pros utilised these modes, the sport would be awash with stories about it - and it is not.

Chicago saying that 14-16 Pro teams in the NPPL have illegal breakout modes is just crazy - sorry dude - but it is... what is your foundation for making such a statement?

All those teams have players that work in the industry, all these teams (well most) have very prominent captains that exercise a great degree of control on their teams... and you honestly believe that all those teams use illegal modes, while cutting players left, right and centre, without ANY Pro player standing up and saying "my ex team uses cheat modes"..... in a sport where there would be no legal repercussions for saying so?

I think people enjoy a good conspiracy theory, and that things are far from as bad as most make it out to be.... paintball has always been like that - no matter what the topic - things tend to get overdramatised because people think they seem more interesting that way.

And yes - even when we are talking ordinary in-game cheating, like wiping and playing on, I think most Pro teams do it less than teams in Semi-Pro and Division 1.

They just get noticed more when they do it.

Nick

Nick apologies because I may have misread, correct me if I am wrong, I thought you had stated that every team out there has at least one cheat on their team who uses a designer board...

Anyways, I think you need to get out to the States more because cheating in the NPPL is rife mate, I know for a FACT that most teams use cheat boards as I have had it confirmed by various players from various teams over the past few years.
Some boast about it, some are resigned to it, some even regret it but........I know at least 7 of the teams do with most of the top 10 in that bracket.
Now, when I say most, the others who are outside of that aren't being excluded because I know they play fair, they are being excluded because none of their team hasn't told me they cheat.
I don't go around demanding an answer from all the pro teams over there but it does come up in conversation and I am just passing onto you what I have been told, not speculation or conjecture, I have been TOLD by these guys that they have cheat markers.

The context of them telling me is generally because they find it incredulous I do not allow, or at least appear to take the stance of not allowing cheat boards.

Nick, it goes on mate.....big time !!!!

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Nick apologies because I may have misread, correct me if I am wrong, I thought you had stated that every team out there has at least one cheat on their team who uses a designer board...

Nope - Chicago said that, and I disagreed with him

Hmm - I trust you when you said so many teams use cheat modes... but then I don't get why nothing is done about it?

I mean, if this comes up in casual conversations... why on earth are you (and others - because obviously it is not just in conversations with you)... accepting it without doing something about it?

I would raise the biggest stink if I was told something like that.... because while I accept that players cheat on-field when they can get away with it, because it is part of the game (player vs ref - like in any other sport ) - cheat modes are a whole different thing, because they go squarely against the whole idea of a level playing field, where the best team wins....

Nick