FAO Team Unreal
- Thread starter FAMINE
- Start date
UK divide
Famine, I agree with why you're pissed, makes sense and to express your thoughts on here is spot on.
Team Unreal have every right, as do any other teams, to ask players from other teams to join and perhaps those players should inform their teams that they have had offers.
Now, in my view (and feel free to slate me) this opens up a clear image of what UK paintball is about and their seems to be a divide.
There are teams that are happy to go play events as 'mates' and have a 'good laugh', get pissed, play ball, go home. Great stuff and there aint nothing wrong with that. The other bunch are teams that want to be recognised as contenders and compete the world over as a high quality outfit within, what they see, as a new extreme sport.
the problem with UK ball is that there are TOO MANY (no offence) of the teams that wanna play glorified rec ball, coz it's a laugh. Now the small group of teams with genuine potential will look around to see who has what it takes to strengthen their squad and help these players grow into something awesome, this in turn will create more better class teams and put UK paintball back on the world map.
More teams should try to do what Nexus did, ok it folded a few teams in the process but look how much talent is in that squad, it's the best decision that anyone in UK paintball has done in ages. They, in my view, are a true professional paintball team and they will own some ass when they click. I condone the poaching of players, for a greater good. Ok, Famine is %110 right about the ethics thing, because this matters to them so it should be respected but by no means should it put anyone off trying to enhance their squads.
Famine, I agree with why you're pissed, makes sense and to express your thoughts on here is spot on.
Team Unreal have every right, as do any other teams, to ask players from other teams to join and perhaps those players should inform their teams that they have had offers.
Now, in my view (and feel free to slate me) this opens up a clear image of what UK paintball is about and their seems to be a divide.
There are teams that are happy to go play events as 'mates' and have a 'good laugh', get pissed, play ball, go home. Great stuff and there aint nothing wrong with that. The other bunch are teams that want to be recognised as contenders and compete the world over as a high quality outfit within, what they see, as a new extreme sport.
the problem with UK ball is that there are TOO MANY (no offence) of the teams that wanna play glorified rec ball, coz it's a laugh. Now the small group of teams with genuine potential will look around to see who has what it takes to strengthen their squad and help these players grow into something awesome, this in turn will create more better class teams and put UK paintball back on the world map.
More teams should try to do what Nexus did, ok it folded a few teams in the process but look how much talent is in that squad, it's the best decision that anyone in UK paintball has done in ages. They, in my view, are a true professional paintball team and they will own some ass when they click. I condone the poaching of players, for a greater good. Ok, Famine is %110 right about the ethics thing, because this matters to them so it should be respected but by no means should it put anyone off trying to enhance their squads.
I think players moving on is a fact of paintball life, and as mentioned already, Famine obviously understands that and doesn't want to restrict any of his players from advancing themselves.
Having said that, from your team ethos and what you're trying to achieve, I can see you encountering this same situation time and time again. Many players moving from rec ball to tourney start their careers off with the same "just in it for a laugh" attitude mentioned by Al, but the one's with the ability and the inclination to "Be all they can Be", will inevitable be noticed and invited to play for better and better teams.
The first role of a Captain in this situation is to have laid the foundations early - insist on honesty from the out set and ensure all players know that they should to tell you if:
1. they're not happy and are thinking another team would be a better fit
2. have been approached to try out or join another team
3. are going to accept another team's offer
And as Captain you owe the player your support i.e. suggest teams you know of, who can provide the next step up and/or leave the door open for them to return if it doesn't work out.
Teams that gleen their roster from first time tourney players, naturally fit into a segment I term as "Feeder Teams". They have a "we're in it for a laugh attitude" (for the most part), are either Novice or Am B, have limited or no sponsorship, and are restricted in how far they can take their game (limited training due experience or facilities/funds).
These teams keep our sport alive in that they fulfill a vital function of getting new players into tourney and allowing potential super stars their initial groundings. Without these teams, who would want to move from once a month rec ball to trying out for some team run by a perpetually angry looking bald body builder type, they act as the first of a couple of stepping stones to the upper levels of our sport.
Our team fits the bill above in more than one way and to date we've had a number of players leave us to move onto higher heights, in truth we are proud when a player flies the nest and we watch his ascent with more than a few "... He used to play for us you know!!"*Beam* *Beam* comments
I'm not trying to preach and I realise that Famine has said his piece and obviously knows his team and how he wants to run it, I'm just trying to put across how our team handles the same issues.
Having said that, from your team ethos and what you're trying to achieve, I can see you encountering this same situation time and time again. Many players moving from rec ball to tourney start their careers off with the same "just in it for a laugh" attitude mentioned by Al, but the one's with the ability and the inclination to "Be all they can Be", will inevitable be noticed and invited to play for better and better teams.
The first role of a Captain in this situation is to have laid the foundations early - insist on honesty from the out set and ensure all players know that they should to tell you if:
1. they're not happy and are thinking another team would be a better fit
2. have been approached to try out or join another team
3. are going to accept another team's offer
And as Captain you owe the player your support i.e. suggest teams you know of, who can provide the next step up and/or leave the door open for them to return if it doesn't work out.
Teams that gleen their roster from first time tourney players, naturally fit into a segment I term as "Feeder Teams". They have a "we're in it for a laugh attitude" (for the most part), are either Novice or Am B, have limited or no sponsorship, and are restricted in how far they can take their game (limited training due experience or facilities/funds).
These teams keep our sport alive in that they fulfill a vital function of getting new players into tourney and allowing potential super stars their initial groundings. Without these teams, who would want to move from once a month rec ball to trying out for some team run by a perpetually angry looking bald body builder type, they act as the first of a couple of stepping stones to the upper levels of our sport.
Our team fits the bill above in more than one way and to date we've had a number of players leave us to move onto higher heights, in truth we are proud when a player flies the nest and we watch his ascent with more than a few "... He used to play for us you know!!"*Beam* *Beam* comments
I'm not trying to preach and I realise that Famine has said his piece and obviously knows his team and how he wants to run it, I'm just trying to put across how our team handles the same issues.
OK just wanna clarify a few bits on these latest posts.....
Apoc are a serious team, its just that the core members are dedicated to working from the bottom up, Obviously with the growth of the team there will always be a few that wanna move on to pastures new and we have no beef with that. But the core squad remains the same in dedication and wanting to suceed.
Apoc trains every 2 weeks on its own sup air facilities and a large portion of that is geared towards teaching the non core members.
Kinda sharing the knowledge if you will.
Now Apoc has a nice sponsorship deal with zap and phoenix and are currently in the process of setting up their own punter and team training site. The main purpose of this is to give players the opportunity of full sponsorship in that everything will be paid for by the team. Personally i see this as the kinda opportunity that most pro players would jump at let alone the guys just starting out.
The dedication of all Apoc members to be the best is unrivaled, but our morale standpoint is that we wanna do it all for ourselves.
Yes its not the easiest or quickest way to the top, but if we can help people get there along the way then thats what makes us different. We are all about winning, but will not alter our morale values to get there. I personally see Apoc as one of the most sporting, fun and dedicated teams in the UK. How many other teams train and coach players every fortnight, with the near chance to this being at least weekly? not many if any i would say.
So no, i dont see Apoc as a feeder team in the main part. A few will come and go, but the majority remain. Possibly why Apoc has 30+ players on its roster and that roster grows monthly. At the worst it makes filling spots at any tourny a breeze
Maybe i should start a Apoc morales thread instead of posting on this one
Apoc are a serious team, its just that the core members are dedicated to working from the bottom up, Obviously with the growth of the team there will always be a few that wanna move on to pastures new and we have no beef with that. But the core squad remains the same in dedication and wanting to suceed.
Apoc trains every 2 weeks on its own sup air facilities and a large portion of that is geared towards teaching the non core members.
Kinda sharing the knowledge if you will.
Now Apoc has a nice sponsorship deal with zap and phoenix and are currently in the process of setting up their own punter and team training site. The main purpose of this is to give players the opportunity of full sponsorship in that everything will be paid for by the team. Personally i see this as the kinda opportunity that most pro players would jump at let alone the guys just starting out.
The dedication of all Apoc members to be the best is unrivaled, but our morale standpoint is that we wanna do it all for ourselves.
Yes its not the easiest or quickest way to the top, but if we can help people get there along the way then thats what makes us different. We are all about winning, but will not alter our morale values to get there. I personally see Apoc as one of the most sporting, fun and dedicated teams in the UK. How many other teams train and coach players every fortnight, with the near chance to this being at least weekly? not many if any i would say.
So no, i dont see Apoc as a feeder team in the main part. A few will come and go, but the majority remain. Possibly why Apoc has 30+ players on its roster and that roster grows monthly. At the worst it makes filling spots at any tourny a breeze
Maybe i should start a Apoc morales thread instead of posting on this one
Not really wanting to take any sides but just to add an outside view of Apoc. I have met most of these guys and the one day training with them was fantastic. They are hard working and have great dedication to being the best they can be but not shutting the doors to any one of any age or ability to come along and try.
On the point of this thread,
I can see what Famine is saying that other captins should approach or make all intentions known. Look at the transfer market for all other sports (eg football or ice hockey)
But at the moment no one person (more so at lower levels) is tied to a team so at the present time I do see it more as an individual courtesy rather than a team thing but this is something that may need properly addressing and developing for the future.
On the point of this thread,
I can see what Famine is saying that other captins should approach or make all intentions known. Look at the transfer market for all other sports (eg football or ice hockey)
But at the moment no one person (more so at lower levels) is tied to a team so at the present time I do see it more as an individual courtesy rather than a team thing but this is something that may need properly addressing and developing for the future.
Famine
Dude, I agree with you on the feeder team crap, I'd be quite offended if someone said K2 were a feeder team for....whoever. 30+ players man, that's some impressive ****, top notch. I also agree with building up a kick ass team over time from the founders to the death, we are the same. Some of us guys have had offers from other teams but have rejected 'em due to our loyalty and emotional ties with K2, I mean, it's our team man and we are getting to were we wanna be, and we will get there. Our team, bar a couple of outsiders, gippos and stragglers, are all the same founding krew from 3 years ago. You can't buy that.
But.
Even though we have a squad of around 10 guys (not quite 30 that is it) we are still looking for killer point players who have a little something that we could work on and if we see someone that fits the bill or shows an interest then, regardless of who that team is, we will ask them to try out. Flipside of the coin being if a Pro team fancied some of our guys we wouldn't be arsed if they asked them for a try out. This player should then tell the team. that is only right. Stay or go, that's the way it is. Like you though we kinda expect some kind of loyalty and passion towards the team. love of the team is something you can't teach fools.
Dude, I agree with you on the feeder team crap, I'd be quite offended if someone said K2 were a feeder team for....whoever. 30+ players man, that's some impressive ****, top notch. I also agree with building up a kick ass team over time from the founders to the death, we are the same. Some of us guys have had offers from other teams but have rejected 'em due to our loyalty and emotional ties with K2, I mean, it's our team man and we are getting to were we wanna be, and we will get there. Our team, bar a couple of outsiders, gippos and stragglers, are all the same founding krew from 3 years ago. You can't buy that.
But.
Even though we have a squad of around 10 guys (not quite 30 that is it) we are still looking for killer point players who have a little something that we could work on and if we see someone that fits the bill or shows an interest then, regardless of who that team is, we will ask them to try out. Flipside of the coin being if a Pro team fancied some of our guys we wouldn't be arsed if they asked them for a try out. This player should then tell the team. that is only right. Stay or go, that's the way it is. Like you though we kinda expect some kind of loyalty and passion towards the team. love of the team is something you can't teach fools.
Obviously my feeder team "crap" was far from a popular theory and rest assured it's now been made very clear to me that neither Team Apoc or the mighty K2 consider themselves Feeder Teams, and indeed the very idea is offensive.
I wasn't trying to cause offence lads, just adding my two pennies worth
was far from a popular theory and rest assured it's now been made very clear to me that neither Team Apoc or the mighty K2 consider themselves Feeder Teams, and indeed the very idea is offensive.I wasn't trying to cause offence lads, just adding my two pennies worth
Al, exactly my point - it's down to the players to decide what they are doing and there is nothing wrong with any team asking any player to come for a try out. If that player is happy and loyal he'll just say no, nothing complicated in that.
I just don't think you can have a go at the new team for having an interest in players. If player is dedicated to the team then they can just decline the offer and leave it at that!
It's like with Carcus, do you think the guy has no loyalty and is too mercenary or are the captains all at fault for asking him to jump each time.
I just don't think you can have a go at the new team for having an interest in players. If player is dedicated to the team then they can just decline the offer and leave it at that!
It's like with Carcus, do you think the guy has no loyalty and is too mercenary or are the captains all at fault for asking him to jump each time.
'Tha Karkas'
very, very good case there Beaks.
Goat, don't take it the wrong way brother, I aint ripping you over the feeder team bit. I think if a teams has the resources (sponsorship etc..) to run an 'A' squad whilst also running a 'feeder' team then that is the best way to go (especially if the feeder team is made up of young punks), I can see what you were aiming at. If player 'A' is stuck on the feeder team and doesn't feel his potential is being realised then the dude is gonna walk at the next offer every time. I don't think though that many teams in this country have the resources to run squads like that and the player pool is that small that any young upstart with an ounce of talent will be plucked for bigger teams, which is why I doubt many teams will consider they have a true feeder squad.
Beaks, back to Marcus.
I think this dude is seriously missunderstood. Fair enough the game is a team effort but every team needs unpredictable murderers on the squad. Face it, if you don't know what the guys gonna do next then how can the other team expect to. Like you say, is he at fault or the teams?? Bit of both I'd say. The boy aint gonna be told what to do, what to wear, what to shoot, where to go etc...so should the captains expect him to?? No I say. The guy can make a difference on the team so you gotta adapt to that. I mean, ok, if he is an ******* and pisses everyone off then you gotta boot the fool. He is probably an extreme case of the career baller, he wants to play wth the best teams in the world so why shouldn't he. I think teams should try and understand how precious dudes are and try, in some cases, to work with that. Andy Kopcok, for example, apparently at Ironman tryouts and for his first few games in training he sucked. He got ripped here, there and everywhere so they thought of giving him the boot, until they discovered that if you sent him to the centre 50 on the off he'd live, hide and bunker key fools which turned him from semi useless to a key game breaker. This is the same mentality you should use with players' mind sets. Work with 'em, not against them.
very, very good case there Beaks.
Goat, don't take it the wrong way brother, I aint ripping you over the feeder team bit. I think if a teams has the resources (sponsorship etc..) to run an 'A' squad whilst also running a 'feeder' team then that is the best way to go (especially if the feeder team is made up of young punks), I can see what you were aiming at. If player 'A' is stuck on the feeder team and doesn't feel his potential is being realised then the dude is gonna walk at the next offer every time. I don't think though that many teams in this country have the resources to run squads like that and the player pool is that small that any young upstart with an ounce of talent will be plucked for bigger teams, which is why I doubt many teams will consider they have a true feeder squad.
Beaks, back to Marcus.
I think this dude is seriously missunderstood. Fair enough the game is a team effort but every team needs unpredictable murderers on the squad. Face it, if you don't know what the guys gonna do next then how can the other team expect to. Like you say, is he at fault or the teams?? Bit of both I'd say. The boy aint gonna be told what to do, what to wear, what to shoot, where to go etc...so should the captains expect him to?? No I say. The guy can make a difference on the team so you gotta adapt to that. I mean, ok, if he is an ******* and pisses everyone off then you gotta boot the fool. He is probably an extreme case of the career baller, he wants to play wth the best teams in the world so why shouldn't he. I think teams should try and understand how precious dudes are and try, in some cases, to work with that. Andy Kopcok, for example, apparently at Ironman tryouts and for his first few games in training he sucked. He got ripped here, there and everywhere so they thought of giving him the boot, until they discovered that if you sent him to the centre 50 on the off he'd live, hide and bunker key fools which turned him from semi useless to a key game breaker. This is the same mentality you should use with players' mind sets. Work with 'em, not against them.
Have just read this whole thread (although skimed some of the longer posts). Whish I'd have seen it earlier but time don't alow !
1. Apoc / famine, Nobal thoughts and I know your held in high estime for them.
However, Unfortuantely your one of the few !!
2. I agree with the "team 'building' to progress" route however as you have found, not everyone is willing to do it the 'moral' way, this is down almost entialy to the fact this is a young sport, and human nature ! Even in sports like kiss ball where there are due processes we know sometimes thay are circumnavigated. This is assuming of corse that new team knows player is on roster with old team which is't always known. (general coment as not aware of specifics of this situation.)
3. (as much as it troubles me to say) Unreal can't be blamed (entialy) as ultimately its the players responsability to do the informing (god ian thats just to much we agree on !) but they SHOULD have guided him to do so as Sparklie metioned to them.
Finaly, at the end of the day, when you look at the team in question I would have expected no different. I will not say more as I wish not to drag this thread down. But like famine, they wont be getting no 'well done' from me !
1. Apoc / famine, Nobal thoughts and I know your held in high estime for them.
However, Unfortuantely your one of the few !!
2. I agree with the "team 'building' to progress" route however as you have found, not everyone is willing to do it the 'moral' way, this is down almost entialy to the fact this is a young sport, and human nature ! Even in sports like kiss ball where there are due processes we know sometimes thay are circumnavigated. This is assuming of corse that new team knows player is on roster with old team which is't always known. (general coment as not aware of specifics of this situation.)
3. (as much as it troubles me to say) Unreal can't be blamed (entialy) as ultimately its the players responsability to do the informing (god ian thats just to much we agree on !) but they SHOULD have guided him to do so as Sparklie metioned to them.
Finaly, at the end of the day, when you look at the team in question I would have expected no different. I will not say more as I wish not to drag this thread down. But like famine, they wont be getting no 'well done' from me !