EXL Sportsmanship...or lack of it

[Patrik/Evolution]

NICK if you missed it as well...(thats exctly what Im saying....NOT)
Im talking about general values.....

Not whéather one duck did this or that or Sebban had a blaa blaa blaa....

I am sure that if you would gain a point by cheating and did not get caught nobody inside your team would get angry at you, you would not lose pay, you would not be taught of as weak by your peers in your team, etc etc etc etc etc....


Thats my point.

EXL has good marshals, what is good but things could much better.

May be Im just dillusional and values have nothing to do with paintball or EXL (since paintball is a business not a sport at the moment anyhow)...but the fact is that EXL is in a position to make themselves literally and practically better than the other leagues where good values are actually taught of as good instead of as obsticle to fast gains. I know all the teams will say this to cameras but they sure as hell dont act like it except 4 one team or may be other but dont know of them.

Lets play Xball

PEACE
n c u in DMA 2004 (again)

NOTE:
THE EXL HAS FINE STANDARDS MOST PROBABLY BETTER THAN ANY OTHER LEAGUE THERE IS. ALL THE EXL TEAMS ARE DEDICATED TO THE FINEST STANDARDS IN ALL AREAS OF PAINTBALL AND SPORTSMANSHIP. I AM JUST TRYING TO GET DISCUSSION TO IMPROVE THIS AND TO GET THE EXL TEAMS TO THINK ABOUT THEIR VALUES AND WHAT THEY STAND FOR IN REALITY NOT GENERAL PUBLIC IMAGE.

(this just to inform all the readers that the EXL or its teams are not actually going down in the flames of cheating and deception more than any other league or teams this is just a discussion to improve the league over all)

BTW: I will not make any more posts, call me if you have something to say thanks.

 

[Mak D - Nexus Eclipse]

Originally posted by Patrik/Evolution

I AM JUST TRYING TO GET DISCUSSION TO IMPROVE THIS AND TO GET THE EXL TEAMS TO THINK ABOUT THEIR VALUES AND WHAT THEY STAND FOR IN REALITY NOT GENERAL PUBLIC IMAGE.

Well why dont you let the teams do that themselves and chill out?

 

[H]

How is getting stressed out and shouting at reffs cheating in anyway? Yeah, it is breaking the rules but 'cheating' indicates that a rule was broken to achieve an unfair advantage. I really don't think that when Pete was getting all craziness at the situation (including the refs) he was doing so to try and gain an unfair advantage.

This was the first time a lot of the teams have played tournament XBall, so stress levels are gonna be high. Rules need to be enforced and teams need to have the right attitude. Both of these will come with time and laying into individuals is not on. As the people involved get more experienced they'll know how to deal better.

On a personal note; I know that cheating can never be officially tolerated but from a spectators perspective it's interesting. A bit of controversy and bending of the rules makes any sport more interesting. Penalties in football, crashes and dirty tricks in formular one all add a bit more interest and uncertainty to their respective sports. The occasional playing on, bit of abuse or whatever adds variety and stuff to keep people talking and interested. As long as the officials in charge keep on top and don't let it all get out of control then it's ok

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Originally posted by Mak D - Nexus Eclipse
Well why dont you let the teams do that themselves and chill out?

Duh? Because it appeared not to work in France? Are you saying teams should do nothing, or that there are meetings going on in all EXL teams where they discuss new ethics issues?

Robbo: If you are finished flinging rethorical dung at me, how about the real issue in this thread? This goes for all the EXL teams for that matter, some of you have responded in this thread but it has been mainly focused on picking on irrellevant details in Patrik's post.

The real issue: What will you do as team leaders in a closed league to improve the behaviour and ethical credo of the EXL?

(I will consider personal flames merely as a way to avoid the real issue. It is irrelevant who I am asking the question)

 

[Sherman]

The refs should not be screamed at by players or coaches. It's not accepted in other sports (where adrenaline levels can be very high too) and should not be accepted in paintball either. It's a matter of respecting the refs. If you shout at refs, pay the price (misconduct penalty) and shut up!

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Nick: My point is, and I hope also Patrik's, that you are in a closed league now and this is the first year it is running. Whatever you do this year will set the tone for future EXL seasons. There are just a few teams, and you all know each other. When will there ever be a better opportunity to clean up some of the stuff that should not be there in a spectator sport (coaches behaving in an unacceptable way, etc). You can yell at the ref in almost any sport, but in other sports you always show respect or you get penalized.

What I am asking for firsthand is not some kind of intra-team work where everybody agrees "not to cheat", but rather that all EXL teams agree on a code of conduct. You are the pro teams, therefore the role models, set the standard and it will be followed in lower divisions.

But maybe I am dreaming of Utopia..

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by DMZ Hasse
Duh? Because it appeared not to work in France? Are you saying teams should do nothing, or that there are meetings going on in all EXL teams where they discuss new ethics issues?

Robbo: If you are finished flinging rethorical dung at me, how about the real issue in this thread? This goes for all the EXL teams for that matter, some of you have responded in this thread but it has been mainly focused on picking on irrellevant details in Patrik's post.

The real issue: What will you do as team leaders in a closed league to improve the behaviour and ethical credo of the EXL?

(I will consider personal flames merely as a way to avoid the real issue. It is irrelevant who I am asking the question)

DMA Asse, now listen or rather read this very carefully, people on here know me very well, I do not skirt issues, i do not flame people as a camouflage for being unable to deal with certain issues, I flame people because I have either been insulted by them or at least feel as though I have, they may also be lying or just plain bullsh!tting.
Never have I used abuse as a smokescreen !!!!!
Also, I doubt I could see Patricia’s mention of my name in such a wholly negative sense as irrelevant to me.
Now if you can't grasp these concepts, then you are a fool and you deserve no more communication, if you can, then the rest of this reply will not fall on stony ground.

This EXL was obviously the first true XBall tournament we have had over here in Europe (I do not count last year's Nation's cup as one).
That said, I don't think any of us involved really predicted the amount of pressure we would come under except maybe the Legion.
Since we were all immersed in this hotbed of pressure, judges, organisers and players included for the first time, it's hardly surprising we all made mistakes, some were miscarriages of judgment, and some were an emergent property of the intense environment we had to try and function in.
I found it hard to deal with, causing me to leave my team, the disappointment of losing some games, one after the other, coupled with a little bad luck, a few bad judges decisions and my players not performing as well as they can, made it hard for me to come up with answers in 'real' time.
I like to consider, to reflect and to analyse problems and then come up with the answers not knee jerk my way out of a problem in two seconds flat.
All of us involved in XBall learnt a lot first time round, what's important is there is a resolve to put things right and I believe between the teams and organisers and judging staff, that resolve is there.
You and Patricia are accusing, maligning and expecting way too much from us, you hold a moral banner above our heads and yet have no conception what it was like to play in that environment.
The team owners, captains, coaches, judges, Millennium will put most of it right by the Dam, of that I'm sure but you can't take the emotion out of a emotive and high octane sport such as XBall.
All we can do is try to learn to deal with it more professionally.

 

[goose]

trying not to get dragged in but...

A few things....

Sherman

The refs should not be screamed at by players or coaches. It's not accepted in other sports (where adrenaline levels can be very high too) and should not be accepted in paintball either. It's a matter of respecting the refs. If you shout at refs, pay the price (misconduct penalty) and shut up!

What world are you living in?? How many professional games of any sport have you actually watched?? Baseball, Basketball, Football (both American & European) the refs take massive amounts of abuse. That doesn't mean that they are not respected - but it is part of "the job" the best ones turn a blind eye (or deaf ear) to 99% of the ranting done by the sideline crazies. Only when it gets out of hand do they toss the coach. There is a reason why U.S. networks don't mic the coaches - they spend too much time using the beeper. On another note - go watch an NBA game live if you want to improve your ghetto vocabulary.

Hasse & Patrick
Teams don't decide to cheat - players do. Each person has thier own concience - and no matter what teams decide, players are the ones who make the ultimate decision. This is true in both the EXL and EVERYWHERE ELSE.

As far as coaches behaving themselves - agreed, to a point - but you try putting yourselves in the pit or sideline with a 2 point difference and 5 minutes to go and lets see how you handle it. The refs who are chosen to do the job in the EXL are some of the better ones we have in Europe, and they know when to ignore the "idiots on the sidelines".

Now I am going to write something – and Pete don't get pissed and ban me because this is not meant as a flame on RL (just so you are warned ) – everyone says that RL are the cleanest, they don't condone cheating etc. etc. etc. (personally I believe this to be true also). BUT if they practice so much, maybe they have just perfected the art of "getting away with things". Now let me say one more time - that I don't think this is the case (if they where that good they could make money in Vegas doing magic) but it is just one other way to look at it.

goose

 

[shamu]

On the subject of ref abuse:

As a masochist, I mean 'ref' I fully expect to get yelled at by players, coaches and spectators. It's part of the game and I mostly ignore it. Where it crosses the line is when it becomes personally abusive (you ****ing ****er, you ****ing suck, etc, etc) and that's where I'd start to apply penalties to a team. Otherwise it's just part of the game. A thick skin is one of the requirements to being a decent ref at this level.

On the subject of "cleaning up" the EXL:

I agree that cheating is more of an individual choice, but there is also the general mindset of the team that affects the individual decision. Specifically, whether a team has a "push the grey and if you get caught, no big deal" attitude, or a "stay out of the penalty box or your ass is grass" attitude helps determine how much the individual will "cheat" (notice the quote marks). As an example, would you tolerate a Markus Nielson-like player on your teams?

Since Nick and Robbo are the two most vocal EXLers here (and this is not directed at any specific instance, team or individual)...
do either of you see a need or opportunity for teams to try to play cleaner, a'la Russian Legion? Do you think it's necessary, let alone possible, for an entire league to change this way?

Maybe I can make this a multiple choice question:

A) Yes, teams could play a little cleaner and it's something we as a league should work on.
B) No, teams don't need to play cleaner. Things are pretty good as they are.
C) No, teams don't need to play cleaner. The judges should learn to do their jobs!
D) No, if we change those wiping Americans will have an advantage.
E) Shut the hell up and check the guy in the taco, fool.

 

[Collier]

trying not to get dragged in but...

Originally posted by goose


Now I am going to write something – and Pete don't get pissed and ban me because this is not meant as a flame on RL (just so you are warned ) – everyone says that RL are the cleanest, they don't condone cheating etc. etc. etc. (personally I believe this to be true also). BUT if they practice so much, maybe they have just perfected the art of "getting away with things". Now let me say one more time - that I don't think this is the case (if they where that good they could make money in Vegas doing magic) but it is just one other way to look at it.

goose

No way, not a chance, they just really are that good!!

What I watched at the weekend was nothing short of awe inspiring, watching mikka(sp?) dive into the snake then scramble up it whilst zoning the back right with one hand was truly amazing!

Paul