Dont say you didnt know!!

[Angus41]

Dude, its Thursday

 

[dr.strangelove]

Dislaimer: I didn't watch the vid, and I don't need to. No offense Magued, but there is no objectivity in "documentary" film making, you're simply going to be exposed to the sympathies of one film maker toward one side or the other, the more popular of which being the stereotypical "poor Palestinian". I'm going to respond to a few comments made, and that's it. After that, flame away, I won't read this thread again.

Without going back into history to find out, does anyone have a better idea who's got more right to the two areas.

This answer goes back to the Old Testament in that antiquated silly old Bible. Regardless of whether you believe in God or the Bible, it's important to understand the events it describes (whether you believe they were real or imagined), because they are the foundation of Israel's claim to that land. The Jews were enslaved in Egypt and, after escaping, instructed by God to overtake the "Promised Land" of Canaan. Long story short, they wandered the desert for 40 years before finally overtaking Canaan, the land God promised to them. This established a Jewish state in the area where present day Israel sits. The Jews lost the land and then either overtook it or had it given back to them several times throughout the Old Testament due to their misbehavior and redemption in God's eyes. They had reestablished a Jewish state for about the hundredth time when, in the "Middle Ages" (sorry, the exact date escapes me), they were overtaken by Muslim fighters from the north. This is what sparked the notrious "Crusades" by the Catholic Church, the objective of which was to irradicate Muslims from Jeruselum (the "Holy Land") and restablish the land of "Christendom" (Kingdom of Heaven). The "Crusades" were, of course, a disaster, and a Jewish state did not officially exist from then until 1948 when the current state was established. Now, one could argue that the Canaanites who originally inhabited the "Promised Land" that the Jews overtook, then lost, then overtook several times, have original ownership of the land. And in all objectivity, one would be correct. However, the modern day "Palestinians" who claim rights to the land are not descendents of those ancient peoples. They are basically wanderers who do not belong to any of the neighboring Arab countries. The fact of the matter is, there has never been a nation called "Palestine", and there has never been a government of said nation. The geographic area where the current Israeli state exists was known as "Palestine", but there has never been a governed nation by the same name. Who has more claim to the land is debatable, but if you want to go as far back historically as possible, that's the backstory.

Looking at how Israel was created, it makes so much sense that they are as aggressive as they are today. The present day generations have not lived through the holocaust themselves, but something like that leaves an imprint on a nation's mentality, particularly if, like the Jews, you have already been prosecuted for thousands of years, all over the world. It makes sense that Israel does not take sh*t from anybody, particularly from those that would rather see the country dead...
However, that does not mean that they should be given a card blanche. Of all people they should be aware of what it means to be dehumanized, so why they dehumanize the Palestinians in the way they do is beyond me. Although, arguably you could say that they have the right to be as stupid and racist as any other country. Still, it is not hard to understand where all this comes from. They had to fight the Palestinians (and the British) to be able to create the state of Israel, so I guess they still consider them to be the defeated foe.

The question you have to ask is the classic "Chicken or the Egg"? First of all, Israel was given the current plot of land that is their nation state by the UN after WWII. So regardless of anything that happened before that, they should have the right to occupy the land they were given. After the Israeli state was created, did Israel go an a campaign to destroy the mish mash of what are now known as "Palestinian" people who were living in the region? Or was their "dehumanization" of this group brought on by the fact that the "Palestinians" were furious for both personal and, perhaps more vehemently, religious reasons, that a Jewish state had been reestablished and began a policy of domestic terrorism in response? The answer is different from documentary to documentary, so believe what you want to. Another interesting question to ask is why the all-powerful, omniscient UN first decided to partition an Israeli state where present day Israel stands, and then decided that the "Palestinians" had just as much right to the land as the Jews do? Much of Europe was re-partitioned after WWII and Israel happens to be the only country that has been pressured by the international community to go back on the repartitionment.

You have to ask yourself, do they want to make sure Lebanon doesnt develop?
Look at the democratic movements that have been outing the syrians and made Lebanon on its way to a real rich and democratic country. What do you think is israels intention with destroying bridges, powerplants, watersupplies etc etc?

If the democratic movements that had Lebanon on it's way to being a succesful world superpower were really as effective as you say, how did an internationally recognized terrorist organization manage to stockpile thousands of old Iranian rockets, position themselves in the southern part of the country, and launch at least 2000 of them into Israel? The question I'm more inclined to ask is: what was the Lebanese government's intention in allowing Hezbollah to stash rockets in homes and neighborhoods throughout southern Lebanon and launch them at their neighboring country? Cause I gotta tell ya, I don't see a lot of the world's more civilized democratic nations doing that (it's been longer than I can remember since a few thousand Canadian rockets were smuggled to the southern US border and launched into Mexico). I think Israel's intention in destroying things like bridges, powerplants, etc, is to disrupt the supply chain of rockets that are landing 3 or 4 at a time in the middle of neighborhoods in the northern part of their country. Try and remember, Israel has been out of southern Lebanon (after their last round of civil warfare and terrorist bombings of Israeli targets) for over 6 years, it was Hezbollah that began firing rockets into their country a month or so ago. Israel traveling into Lebanon to prevent Hezbollah from doing that can't really fairly be labeled an act of "aggression". I'm confident that if 2000 rockets had landed in the middle of the London suburbs that even you Brits would probably do something in retaliation (though I can't be sure of that), and probably would not be villified for it by the "International Community".

Israel's response to the rocket attacks is entirely disproportionate. They're killing civilians not Hezbollah...
It would be the same as if the UK just started dropping airstrikes and artillery on villages/towns in Ireland when the IRA were on a bombing campaign.

First of all, it would be nice if the "International Community" had as much sympathy for Israeli civilians as they do for Lebanese: there's been over 100 of them killed since Hezbollah began launching rockets into northern Israel. Soecond: how would have them deal with guerilla fighters who hide their missiles in homes in the suburbs? Keep in mind that the Israeli butchers had the courtesy to drop leaflets over their targets a week or so in advance in an attempt to clear the area of civilians: the same courtesy was not afforded to Israel by Hezbollah when rockets suddenly began falling into Israeli neighborhoods. What do you do? Go knocking on doors? Write some polite letters? If a gunman were up in a clock tower picking people off with a high powered rifle and was hiding behind an innocent hostage (like the brave Lebanese Hezbollah "freedom fighters" are doing), would you continue to let him pick off dozens of more people to spare the life of the one hostage? For some people, those are serious decisions that have to be faced. It's easy to take the moral high ground from your La-Z-Boy watching something happen from 10,000 miles away on your satellite TV. It's different when the rockets are landing on your block.

I personally think that it's a disgrace that the UN or NATO haven't intervened yet. Maybe there's not enough oil there for us to be bothered about.

What is the UN solution for Israel? Take the land that the UN gave to them back and disperse them throughout Europe? Would that appease the "Palestinians"? Doesn't seem like a fair solution to you Euro lot, I know you wouldn't want your peaceful paradises put in jeopardy by the blood-thirsty Jews. Maybe the great humanitarian and Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's solution would be better: the complete extermination of Israel and the Jews. I think it's a disgrace that the UN has supported terrorist groups instead of the Israeli state, that they established mind you, and have pressured Israel to make deals with groups whose sole objective is the dissolution of the Israeli state.

Let me conclude by saying that it's a bit ironic that TFP shut down about three threads last week for being off topic, yet this can stay? It couldn't be favoritism, I know, because the justice of TFP is blind

 

[Robbo]

I try not to comment in threads like these because I don't ever believe there can be a resolution that can please all concerned...but why does this happen?
I'll give you a clue with a question that often springs to my mind.......how the hell can really intelligent people look at the same problem and come up with diametrically opposed solutions ?

If intelligence is supposed to bestow insight and wisdom (and please, no points made regarding the semantics of intelligence in relation to wisdom, this would just be academic) then it beggars belief we end up in this situation.

I don't wanna simplify this problem too much but if you were to offer a problem that involved some quite complex mathematical propositions, then I'm pretty sure there would be a consensus agreement on the answer amongst mathematicians...and the reason this happens is because mathematics is an objective science, free from all the bullsh!t, partiality, bigotry, bias and god knows what else people tend to throw in the mix of debate when involving themselves in political problems such as this.

In situations such as the Israeli / Lebanon crisis, solutions are reached not because of any appliance of reason or logic or even fair play, they are arrived at after considering political expediency, face-saving, economics and lord knows what else.
One might even be excused for believing that a default adoption of considering human suffering as a basis for any cease fire might be a good thing but even this is ignored in favour of all those considerations just mentioned.
The political machine that governs policies and consequent decisions in all these parties concerened is inhuman, it is devoid of compassion or reason and as such renders threads and discussoins like these utterrly menainlgess because all they do is widen the confusion and consolidate bias.

 

[HERMITT]

Well Dr Strangelove, the question has to be where to start.

Isreal and the current conflict are born out of the guilt that was generated during WW2. You talk about the UN apportioning land to the Isrealis as though it existed in the same state it does now. Actually it was merely the league of nations who consisted of the larger victors of WW2. So tyo draw comparison to the descisions it made then and the ones it makes now would be wholey misleading.

Isreal has been supported by the west throughout this century as we fought a number of proxy wars against the Soviets. That's why we have supplied them with advanced technology at no cost and that's why we have consistently used their intelligence and special forces to carry out work that our governments are too squemish to be involved with. Islreal has always been a puppet. However, now it has come to believe it is greater than its masters. This is predominantly due to a number of military engagements undertaken by the IDF starting with the Suez conflict where they cut their teeth againsta far larger and theoretically better equiped Egyptian military force. This is another prime example of how the Isrealis have been used to do our dirty work. With more than a little help from America they successfully managed to destroy the fighting capabilities of both Syria and Egypt. These conflicts convinced them that the Arab world was out to destroy them and so their defensive positioning took on a pre-emptive posture. This was based on the success of their preemptive strike on the egyptian air force.

The problem with this philosophy is that it makes the victim become the aggressor. The majority of Isreal's politicians come from the persecuted generation and this shapes their view of the world around them. Talk to many young Isrealis (not the hardline religious extremists) and you will hear a very different take on their place in the world.

To say that Isreal has been out of Lebanon for 6 years is not true. They ave had intelligence and covert forces opperating continuously since their full occupation ended. The lebanese government has only been functioning for a few months since before then it still had syrian troops occupying its capital city. It seems a little rediculous to blame them for not dealing with Hezbollah when they have had no time to even set up a nationwide independent political system. Hezbollah is an Iranian trained and supplied organisation that has been functioning for longer than the state in which it is based.

I see no problem whatsoever with the 'poor palestinian' term since it is easily justfified. The response by Isreal to the percieved and real threats has been extremely disproportional. This has been illustrated throughout the last 20 years on a smaller scale in the way Isreal has bulldozed and occupied UN recognised refugee camps. They have killed a huge number of civilians, journalists and Un observers and have acted with little regard for the rights of those around them. It is hard to see how they can justfy their actions in the long term when all they are doing is giving a series of reasons to continue the fight against them. They make martyrs of those they kill and wonder why there are 100 others that pick up a gun and turn to violence. I in no way condone the terrorist actions of the parties involved in Gaza or the Lebanon but it is hard to see how the reaction of the Isrealis can ever bring peace.

 

[Buddha 3]

Isn't that the part where you close it for not being paintball related and not being a weekend? (i'm gonna appear really stupid if it is a weekend..)

Read Andy Piper's post, smartypants.

 

[Tom Allen]

Dislaimer: I didn't watch the vid, and I don't need to. No offense Magued, but there is no objectivity in "documentary" film making, you're simply going to be exposed to the sympathies of one film maker toward one side or the other, the more popular of which being the stereotypical "poor Palestinian". I'm going to respond to a few comments made, and that's it. After that, flame away, I won't read this thread again.



This answer goes back to the Old Testament in that antiquated silly old Bible. Regardless of whether you believe in God or the Bible, it's important to understand the events it describes (whether you believe they were real or imagined), because they are the foundation of Israel's claim to that land. The Jews were enslaved in Egypt and, after escaping, instructed by God to overtake the "Promised Land" of Canaan. Long story short, they wandered the desert for 40 years before finally overtaking Canaan, the land God promised to them. This established a Jewish state in the area where present day Israel sits. The Jews lost the land and then either overtook it or had it given back to them several times throughout the Old Testament due to their misbehavior and redemption in God's eyes. They had reestablished a Jewish state for about the hundredth time when, in the "Middle Ages" (sorry, the exact date escapes me), they were overtaken by Muslim fighters from the north. This is what sparked the notrious "Crusades" by the Catholic Church, the objective of which was to irradicate Muslims from Jeruselum (the "Holy Land") and restablish the land of "Christendom" (Kingdom of Heaven). The "Crusades" were, of course, a disaster, and a Jewish state did not officially exist from then until 1948 when the current state was established. Now, one could argue that the Canaanites who originally inhabited the "Promised Land" that the Jews overtook, then lost, then overtook several times, have original ownership of the land. And in all objectivity, one would be correct. However, the modern day "Palestinians" who claim rights to the land are not descendents of those ancient peoples. They are basically wanderers who do not belong to any of the neighboring Arab countries. The fact of the matter is, there has never been a nation called "Palestine", and there has never been a government of said nation. The geographic area where the current Israeli state exists was known as "Palestine", but there has never been a governed nation by the same name. Who has more claim to the land is debatable, but if you want to go as far back historically as possible, that's the backstory.

This hold no water with me, as the old testament has no basis in fact. The stories told in it are more fables than factual.

 

[Magued]

Dr Strangelove

If youre dismissing the film as a "poor Palestinian" propaganda thing, then im afraid I have to dismiss your long post and not even read it.
I would be happy to discuss with you, but not if you are taking the stance that arguments against your belief is propaganda. In the film alot of Jews in high positions take a stand and I would love to discuss their point of view with somebody like you.

Pete

Dont know if I understood you right, but basicilly what you are saying is that thise issues have so many hidden agendas, different angels and have little to do with fair and justice etc so its meaningless to even discuss it?

Well imagine if we took that stance in paintball? Or we could argue that the more we know what really happpening the more we can do something about it. I belive that if the ignorance in those issues was lifted in the western world we wouldnt have had a Palestinian problem anymore. I belive that if English and American people knowed along time ago what really happens in the occupied territories the pressure on politicians would have been huge and a settlement would have been reached. I might be wrong but I have a hard time thinking that the current politics would be possible if people educated themself.

Right now Israel doesnt have to negotiate, talk or give back ****. They have 100% backing from the UK and US and thats all they need to continue. The scary thing is that the extremist muslims have a easy task recruting fanatics thats willing to carry out terrorist acts. Just like the one Im reading about today that they planned in London!


Magued

 

[Magued]

Buddha

The reason Israel is attacking the entire infrastructure is brutally simple from a pure military point of view: You destroy your enemy's ability to move troops and equipment, and they can't send reinforcements to the areas you plan to attack, nor can they flee once you have them on their knees. It is similar to what the Allies did before and during the Normandy invasion of 1944.
Unfortunately, what makes sense from a military point of view is often terrible from a humanitarian point of view. After all, aid goods and other forms of help can not be moved into the areas for the same reasons. If an ambulance can not cross a river or ravine because the bridge has been destroyed, neither can a rocket firing truck (like the ones used to target northern Israel). And that is the simple, brutal reason it's being done. Israel's policy at the moment seems to be "if somebody is going to get bombed, it damn well ain't going to be us!".
The same brutal reasoning can be applied to installations like powerplants and water supplies. They take away the enemy's ability to fight. Soldiers that have no water, fight a lot less fiercely for instance. When the US started fighting Iraq (both in 1991 and 2003) their first targets were such things as power stations and water plants. They are, unfortunately, legitimate military targets, even according to the Geneva conventions (not that the US or Israel have shown much regard to these in recent years).

However, it can be reasoned that the bombing campaign of Israel is too severe (even if you do agree with Israel). After all, they can quite easily cut off the southern part of Lebanon and fight their enemies there. But by striking throughout the country they demonstrate that their enemies are safe nowhere. Likewise, the indiscriminate use of force in southern Lebanon (i.e. the bombing of Qana) is most likely brought about by a philosophy that reasons that the people (the Lebanese) that have given shelter to our enemies (Hezbollah) are my enemy as well. It is a very simplistic outlook, but has been Israel's stance since it's birth in 1948.

Like I said, I understand the reasoning Israel uses, but if you were too ask me if I agree....no. Without trying to sound too biblical, I think violence only begets violence. Also, the bombing of civilians, or an excessive use of force never brought a country or a people to it's knees. History teaches us this.
When the UK was bombed during during the Blitz of 1940/1941, the civilian casualties only stiffened the British resolve.
Likewise, the massive Allied bombing raids on German cities, particularly murderous ones like the raid on Dresden in 1945, only made the Germans more determined not to surrender.
The Russian maltreatment of the German peoples they conquered during 1944 and 1945 also made the Germans more determined to fight or die.
The Dutch have been under Spanish rule from 1568 until 1648. The Spanish were brutal. Did we roll over and play dead? No, we fought them for 80 years. And we won. And became one of the riches, most powerful seagoing nations of the world.
The same goes for all the nations conquered during WW2. All these countries, though their armies were defeated, kept fighting by means of underground or partizan movements.

If brutality worked in breaking the will to be free, there would still be black slaves in the US, apartheid in South Africa, communism in Europe, I'd be speaking German, and we not be confronted daily with images of young Palestinian men throwing rocks at the Israeli forces. They would have given up long ago. Just think of David and Goliath. Seems very appropriate somehow, since, like David, the Palestinians are often just armed with a rock, where the big, Israeli tanks like the Merkava and Magach can be likened to Goliath.

Buddha.

But surely the israelis understand that they are creating a bigger monster than they are currently fighting? I mean they cant just plan strategy based on 1 month? Where is the long term thinking and security in that thinking? They are smart people, no doubt so what are they thinking?

Magued

 

[Robbo]

Pete

Dont know if I understood you right, but basicilly what you are saying is that thise issues have so many hidden agendas, different angels and have little to do with fair and justice etc so its meaningless to even discuss it?
Magued

You misunderstand me Mag; hidden agendas, different angles etc are just problems that exacerbate any resolution.
I am saying this, discussion on threads is done for what reason?

Well, you certainly posted it up to try and sway people's opinion to your own by highlighting what you thought (from your position) were pertinent details.

Your post generated responses that ran contra to your viewpoint and then these guys then indulged in the very same exploit as you, they wrote up what they believed was a fair rebuttal to the points you made in an attempt to justify their position.

You are not unintelligent, nor were some of the replies that contradicted you...getting the picture yet Mag?

Now, there are people out there, I have listened to them on many occasions, who are a lot more intelligent than myself, you or anybody else remarking on these boards and they still generate contrary opinions and suggested resolutions.

And so, if message boards are meant to air opinions with a view to education, then this thread is meaningless, it serves no practical purpose whatsoever.

I am not even gonna give weight to the idea that forums such as these would ever even begin to overcome any political inertia generated by a history of conflict and self-interest ... it ain't gonna happen Mag and any suggestion to the contrary is poppycock mate.

As a crude example of people power and it's real influence, look at 911 for Gods' sake, what did that do?
Those guys who did that sh!t had a political agenda in trying to force the hand of western policy, what did they achieve? They achieved an unprecedented backlash.

My point here is, if you think that writing a few (what you believe to be) coherent arguments is gonna change one damned thing, then you are in cuckoo land because look what was achieved by the 911 guys in their pursuit of changing people's opinion.

In writing your opinion on here, all you achieved is you let people know your opinion.......and in practical terms...that achieved jack sh!t !

 

[Magued]

Nah

You misunderstand me Mag; hidden agendas, different angles etc are just problems that exacerbate any resolution.
I am saying this, discussion on threads is done for what reason?

Well, you certainly posted it up to try and sway people's opinion to your own by highlighting what you thought (from your position) were pertinent details.

Your post generated responses that ran contra to your viewpoint and then these guys then indulged in the very same exploit as you, they wrote up what they believed was a fair rebuttal to the points you made in an attempt to justify their viewpoint.

You are not unintelligent, nor were some of the replies that contradicted you...getting the picture yet Mag?

Now, there are people out there, I have listened to them on many occasions, who are a lot more intelligent than myself, you or anybody else remarking on these boards and they still generate contrary opinions and suggested resolutions.

And so, if message boards are meant to air opinions with a view to education, then this thread is meaningless, it serves no practical purpose whatsoever.

I am not even gonna give weight to the idea that forums such as these would ever even begin to overcome any political inertia generated by a history of conflict and self-interest ... it ain't gonna happen Mag and any suggestion to the contrary is poppycock mate.

As a crude example of people power and it's real influence, look at 911 for Gods' sake, what did that do?
Those guys who did that **** had a political agenda in trying to force the hand of western policy, what did they achieve? They achieved an unprecedented backlash.

My point here is, if you think that writing a few (what you believe to be) coherent arguments is gonna change one damned thing, then you are in cuckoo land because look what was achieved by the 911 guys in their pursuit of changing people's opinion.

In writing your opinion on here, all you achieved is you let people know your opinion.......and in practical terms...that achieved jack sh!t !

I dont agree with you on this one!

First of all, Information is power. People need to know as many sides of a story as they can possible hear to form a opinion.
This information is not availible for everybody and needs to be. In the Arab countrys you wont get alot of point of views from the Israeli side. Same thing in Israel i presume. In the US witch is Israels biggest backer and a huge reason why the situation is what it is the information is not going thru either. Its being filtered and arranged. Now if you took some time and actuelly watched the film you would know what Im talking about.
Forums like this where people from all over the world visit is a perfect place to exchange views and information, and by doing that getting closer to a solution.

About the 911 thing, you dont have to tell me about those morons Pete. And remember that my son and my sister and her family where in Egypt at Sharm el Sheik when we where in Denver NPPL last year. When 3 bombs exploded around them and killed 80 egyptians. It was just pure luck that they managed to get back unharmed. So my feelings for those extremist animals is not great!!

Magued