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Chicago

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"Steal" may not be the delicate way of putting it, but it's accurate, and certainly not a lie.

Steal: Take something that is not yours.

NPPL used to not be Chuck's, and now it is Chuck's, and I don't recall anyone who used to control NPPL (the PLAYERS) giving ownership of NPPL to Chuck.

Missy, you claim that I am a liar when I say Chuck stole NPPL. If I am a liar, how about you explain to all of us how, exactly, Chuck legitimately ended up with NPPL?

Or can you not do that, and the truth of the situation is you're just calling people names because you don't have a leg to stand on?
 

Missy Q

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Chuck didn't steal anything Chicago.
There was a player run NPPL entity. That entity split up. Everyone except Chuck and his now trademarked NPPL organisation went in one direction. Chuck, and his only enployee - Camille, went in the other, Chuck was hired by National, who had already bought the NPPL.com name and planned to use him as a pawn until the name could morph into National Paintball Professional League.

If by steal, you meant 'trademarked' then just say trademarked. If he trademarked it then it was actually his, which means he didn't take anything that wasn't his, which means he didn't 'steal' anything. See my reasoning?

Now the players don't provide enough money to run the league. That is a fast. Chuck needed investors and he needed infrastructure, but he had no funds. So he does a deal with Pure Promotions, who are contracted to raise the funds, provide the infrastructure and put on the events for the NPPL. There is a long term contract drawn up, and there you have it. The NPPL is still the NPPL. Does it mean that it is owned by the players? No it does not. Do the players still think that they own the league? No, they don't. Do they get good input in how the league is run? Yes they do.

It is not 1987 any more. The last time the players 'owned' the league was way before the split, back when Jerry Braun was calling the shots. Nobody thought the league was run by the players then either, so the banging of the ownership drum is a little redundant in my opinion. And calling Chuck a thief is just plain dumb.
I mean, at waht stage did you think the players owned the NPPL? When Dave/Rennick/Jerry/Gardners/Chuck were all there? You thought the players owned it then? Don't be ridiculous. If you want to take that stance you are 10 years too late my friend.

For someone so cynical you can be very naive...
 

shamu

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Apr 17, 2002
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Originally posted by Chicago
"Steal" may not be the delicate way of putting it, but it's accurate, and certainly not a lie.

Steal: Take something that is not yours.
Just out of curiosity - if someone throws something out and I take it out of the garbage, do you consider that stealing?

Because that's how it seems to me it went down. I remember a few years ago when Tom Cole stepped down as president and no one else wanted the job. At least someone was willing to step up.

I wouldn't exactly call the pre-split NPPL a model of democratic process either. I mean seriously - how do you steal an election if you're the only one who bothers to vote?

IMHO, I think we have now about what we had then - an elitist group of pro teams/industry insiders directing a larger group of immature, apathetic ne'er-do-wells.
 

Chicago

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Why are you grouping Dave/Jerry/Rennick/etc with Chuck? Dave/Rennick/Jerry/etc were the promoters. They wern't even very friendly - the only reason they're part of the same organization now is because they figured it was less distastful to unify than to accede to demands being put forth by Chuck at the time.

As for "trademark", you don't seem to have any understanding of trademark law. "If he trademarked it then it is actually his" doesn't make any sense. Trademarks belong to the first people to use them in commerce. Chuck did not come up with NPPL, didn't come up with the name NPPL, and NPPL was in use for years before Chuck was the NPPL President. The trademark is not his, and despite that no one is willing/able to sue him for it, his use of the trademark, which belonged to the original players organization, is STEALING.

There was a player's league called NPPL, where control was invested in the players via their ability to vote for who ranthe organization. Somehow that brand has come to be regarded as owned by Chuck, with no compensation to, or permission from, the original organization. You still havn't told me how this isn't stealing. All you've said is that Chuck "trademarked" a trade mark which he didn't create. That SUPPORTS the characterization of stealing.

I also object to your characterization of "the entity split up". Apparently, so does Steve, a few posts back. Steve maintains that Chuck is entitled to NPPL because he was elected president, and because he's president, he can act on behalf of the organization until he believes its appropriate to hold elections again. Which you apparently didn't have any problem with. Now you're saying that NPPL was disintegrated and Chuck just trademarked the name, so it really is his. How about you guys figure out which story you want to go with and get back to us?

Steve is actually closer to the mark: Chuck was elected President, and stopped having elections. The promoters paid NPPL sanctioning fees before Chuck was president, and after he was president, up to the split. In 2002, Chuck, still advertising himself as NPPL President, attempted to "negotiate" more from the promoters, and at the end of 2002, Chuck, still claiming to act as NPPL President, said NPPL would start sanctioning events produced by Pure Promotions and not the "new" PSP.

Now, considering how much effort Chuck put into maintainingthe appearance that the NPPL prior to the split is the SAME ORGANIZATION as the NPPL after the split (and the current marketing materials which pump NPPL's extensive experience in paintball tournaments, extending further back than 2003), I don't see how you can now sit here and tell us that the NEW NPPL is NOT the old NPPL, when even NPPL doesn't say that.
 

Chicago

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Originally posted by shamu
Just out of curiosity - if someone throws something out and I take it out of the garbage, do you consider that stealing?
Legally it's stealing, but we can all agree that ethically, and for the purpose of this discussion, it's not stealing.

I don't think it's an appropriate analogy here though. A better analogy would be, if I have a TV I don't watch anymore, and you take it, and I don't think it's worthwhile to file a police report, is it stealing?
 

Chicago

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Oh, and just to save you the emarassment of falsely calling me a liar again, from the NPPL website:

ABOUT THE NPPL

The NPPL is the National Professional Paintball League, the sole sanctioning body for all amateur and professional paintball players in North America. It is a league, where player representatives formulate league rules, make business decisions and sanction and preside over all aspects of any NPPL event. The NPPL was founded in 1993 and is the oldest such organization.


So I'm going to go with this is supposed to be the same NPPL, if that's what NPPL is going with.

While we're at it, you want to explain which player representatives preside over all aspects of NPPL events?
 

Missy Q

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so if Jerry Braun had fild a plice report, would Chuck have been sent to Jail.?

Clearly not. Shamu's analogy was way more accurate. Steves was pretty accurate too, and so was mine. Yours is not accurate though, sorry.
 

Chicago

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Originally posted by Missy Q
so if Jerry Braun had fild a plice report, would Chuck have been sent to Jail.?

Clearly not. Shamu's analogy was way more accurate. Steves was pretty accurate too, and so was mine. Yours is not accurate though, sorry.
Why would Jerry file a police report? Wasn't his TV.

If a NPPL member sued NPPL to have elections, and had the money to see the lawsuit through, they would probably prevail.

Steve's was very accurate, aside from accepting that being president allowed Chuck to decide not to have any more elections. Yours contradicts steve's - you can't say they're both accurate. Either NPPL today is a continuation of NPPL from 1993 (as stated by NPPL) or it isn't (as you propose by saying Chuck trademarked NPPL so now it's his.)

Here, don't take my word for it, take NPPLs:

Since the NPPL considered sanctioning a new 7 Man Series at the World Cup in Orlando there has been much confusion and speculation as to what this means to the Teams and Players of the Worlds largest paintball league.

In order to clarify the situation and explain the reasons for the NPPL’s decision to part company with the PSP and run its own series of events, NPPL President Chuck Hendsch has issued the following press release:

‘The NPPL is a non-political governing body responsible for sanctioning quality paintball events and committed to growing the sport at all levels. We are also dedicated to improving and maintaining the Sports integrity and professionalism.

Our goal is to create a positive environment which encourages new players into the game and to provide all players and sponsors with a top quality flagship Paintball series with sound infrastructure that delivers on its promises.

The further intention of the NPPL is to legitimise tournament paintball by maintaining a body of independent professional referees, whose sole purpose is to maintain and enforce the rules, regulations and standards at all NPPL events. The NPPL has also developed a sanctioning program with very strict guidelines to ensure that all event organisers adhere to the highest standards and work progressively in tandem with the teams and industry as a whole.’‘

The NPPL Super 7’s is formatted to globalise the game and make it more presentable to Television, outside sponsors and most importantly, spectators. 7-man is a very strategic game, is easy to follow, fun to watch, and fits more easily into desirable venue’s, allowing more impressive locations to be explored.

We are focusing on cleaning up the game, employing trained, dedicated refs who follow the series and adjudicate at every event. We cannot allow referee’s to be intimidated. They must have the knowledge and authority to properly enforce the rules, specifically for cheating, foul language, physical altercation and threats, which have not been properly addressed in the past.’

‘The NPPL is for everyone, teams, sponsors and industry alike. A team can show up and use any product so long as they are safe and falls within the NPPL guidelines. Our doors are open; we are excited and looking forward to moving Paintball onwards. Over the past years tournament paintball has grown in participation but the tournaments themselves have not kept pace with that growth. The 2003 NPPL 7-man series will revolutionise the game as we know it today’

The ‘Clean up’ program will be backed up by trained Refs and Equipment Scrutineers that will be flown to each event, instead of having to source referee’s at the location of each tournament and giving them rudimentary schooling. This has been the difficulty with the consistency of the Pro reffing since its inception and has been caused in no small part by the lack of available funds required to finance the levels of expenditure needed to pay for the flights and travelling expenses of the more experienced Pro Referee’s. Good refs can be and have been found, but if these refs are only used at their local event they do not gather the experience necessary to enforce the rules properly, and the whole process must be repeated at the location of the next event with no guarantee of success.

Each of the NPPL Super 7’s events will be held in a quality venue with floodlights to allow games to start later and run into the evening. There are plans to allow more teams into the finals, where a new knockout format will take place on a ‘Centre Court’ arena. The NPPL 7-man Series will kick off in February 2003 and a complete schedule of locations and dates for the entire series are to be announced in the middle of December. The NPPL has already secured considerable industry support which will guarantee increased prize packages for all divisions. For example, Pro teams will compete for a minimum first place cash prize of $20,000 at each event, plus a Pro Series Champions prize of $15,000. Amateur, Novice and Rookie teams will compete for prize packages totalling $40,000, $30,000 and $20,000 respectively.

These events will also be linked to the European Millennium Series. Points from specific European events will count in the NPPL series and vice versa, to entice more European teams to come over and try their skills in a 7 man format. Fewer European teams are making the trip over to the US due to the standard of events they get at home. Higher quality venues and grass playing surfaces are a requirement in the Millennium series, and this requirement must and will be applied to the NPPL Super 7’s in order to globalise a higher standard of event. It is also being considered that NPPL and Millennium membership could be combined, so that members of one series can travel to play in the other, and enjoy membership benefits of both series without paying another membership fee.
So, how about them player reps and the refs and equipment scrutinizers that ref the whole series and get flown from event to event, and the not having the guys you pick up from the local area with remedial training?
 

Missy Q

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Jun 8, 2005
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Chicago, calling you a liar does not embarrass me. I feel you are far closer to being a liar than Chuck is to being a thief. Thats what I think. Sorry.

I havn't time to drag up every peice of NPPL info since 2001. If you are saying, now, in 2005/6 that you thought the league was owned and operated by the players and that Chuck stole the league away from them, then I think you are crackers.