Designer Cheating !!!

[Edwards]

As fas as i know the NPPL are looking into doing a standered chipset for all electronic guns to stop this Designer Cheating
so if a ref opens up a gun if it is not a NPPL chip they will be banned from the comp .this is not set in stone just what i have heard

chris

 

[Buddha 3]

Wow......what a wasp's nest to throw yourself into Robbo. Respect.
Besides the obvious advantages that such cheats may have, there is ofcourse the even more pressing safety issue. Any team or player breaking the safety codes, should be shot dead.
As far as the chipboards are concerned, I guess all it takes is a person with a bit of a proficiency in electronics, and you could easily make the marker do pretty much what you want. And such alterations to the circuitry would be very hard to spot, only a person who actually made the marker in question could probably tell the difference.
Since it is obviously very hard to catch those concerned via any other means, I'd have to vote for on field chronoing too. It's annoying, but hey....
Good of you to not name the suspected culprits, because as long as there is no actual evidence of this cheating, it would be unfair to drag their names through the mud.
God, I hope this is just one of those urban legends.

 

[Liz]

Originally posted by rancid
These kind of accusations have been levelled at teams for donkey's years. Isn't it just summat that is invented to explain inadequacies?

It must have been 8 years ago when I first heard this, on field chronoing was introduced and what did they find.... nout.

Sure you're not being dragged into a conspiracy theory here?

Not only have I heard about various "designer" cheats over many years, but about 8-10 years ago I was given a tutorial on how to carry out the cheats of those days - I should point out here that I never, ever used any of them though.
Another decade, more advanced & complex markers, a different set of designer cheats possible and I'm afraid there will always be people who do anything they can to get that extra edge. It's a similar situation to illegal drugs in athletics, as soon as the officials develop tests for one set of drugs then a new set appears.
All that can be done is for people who know & understand the various complexities of the equipment to be alert to any possibilities so they can devise methods of testing, and then crack down very, very hard indeed on anyone caught out. Back to the athletics analogy, they do bans for years or even life when drugs cheats are caught, so the rest of a tournament or even season doesn't seem to harsh to me as long as it really is a designer cheat & not a genuine mistake - we've all had hot guns at some stage & the majority of these won't have been intentional.

 

[Mr Big]

Cmon...

Let's name some names, then we can go and burn down their houses and check their markers for cheats. and rumours are food enough for me.

 

[Robbo]

First off, Rancid, can't comment on the identity of the guy but suffice to say, I too have heard rumours of this kind ever since I started playing.
I have also played with guys who regularly turned up their guns (not me, I might add) and some who ran close to the limit, say 298 and then turned it down when they came in for chronographing, so I know this shi#t does go on.
Now those people who did that crap make their own decisions as to what they do, I am not their moral arbiter but I also think that when a team decides on a policy of cheating then we are in a whole new ball game (pun intended).
I am not minimising in any way the cheating that I was witness to, far from it, it was despicable but we must acknowledge that when teams have it as a working component of their game, then we are in deep water.
I think for every device we can think of to build into the gun (standard chip sets etc) then they (the cheats) will find a way round it.
I'm afraid I harp back to rigorous and frequent on-field chronographing.

Darm, these people are not doing it to hurt other players, they are only doing it to gain an advantage !!!
And appealing to their better nature mate, ain't gonna see much success this side of the next expansion phase of the universe.

Oh and Bud, I don't think I have really thrown myself in a wasp's nest because I don't run with a hot gun (well never knowingly anyway) but I suppose I could be criticised for not saying something when I saw team-mates doing it but hey, come on, I ain't the sport's enforcer or moral reference point.

And hey Magued, perhaps the reason you have never seen it, is because by it's very nature it is covert, hidden, hard to detect and so on.
It ain't meant to be witnessed, therefore don't be too surprised that you have never recognised a re-configured chip set or a re-programmed data set when the guy is shooting at you or you are firing his gun over the chronograph.
Get an oscilloscope out and u might have a chance !

Pete

 

[Walker (Nitro)]

from what ive heard its easy with the RaceGun frame for the cocker to program different modes in, and activate them in the middle of a ga....err....i mean.....DOH

 

[Robin Hood]

To be quite honest I'm quite surprised I haven't heard more about this in the past. When I first started reading about all of these electro paintguns and grips one of the first things that came to mind was the use of full auto and burst fire etc. I thought awesome - then I started reading about all of the legal restrictions to do with no full auto in england, and certain US states. This made me think again and I could fully understand how they are all doing it for safety reasons and I thought fair enough - but a lot of people would get seriously hacked off if they new that the full auto function was disabled because of where they live - especially seeing as they're paying large sums of money for their paintgun and it is capable of the electro functions.

It's like anything that becomes illegal - you get dodgy dealers and people pay a lot of many to have exceptions made and to get a hold of 'the good stuff'. Like Buddha3 said, all you need is a knowledge of electronic and circuitry and you may be able to tinker with your board and voila - you're locked, stocked and ready to rock.

With Angels tech's for example - (I don't actually know what the course involves from WDP although I have a friend who has attended one and I'm under the impression that they're very detailed.) If you get an Angel tech or someone with a proficient knowledge of their paintgun rather, then mix that with the necessary electronic knowledge and perhaps a large cash offer - I'm sure the boards can be tinkered with and exceptions made, if you know what I mean.

"coded series of inputs via the trigger or some other subtle method is designed into the gun" - I'm amazed that this kind of stuff is possible - and why??? I would have thought that any alterations to rate of fire/mode of the paintgun should only be made possible from a series of button pushing requiring time, and being obvious. There's no real need to be able to change mode by a series of action by the trigger mid-game. It's obviously not allowed in touraments and no-one who doesn't cheat wouldn't complain.

All that paintball needs is for some kind of tragic accident to happen on camera due to some irresponsible cheater who couldn't obey the rules - what would that do for the image of paintball. You could have someone seriously disabled for life....or worse. Nobody would dare insure the sites or host events!

Short of having each individual circuit board inspected at every tournament, or encasing the circuit boards in tamper proof cases that disable it if opened or something along those lines, it seems that constant in game chronoing is one way to keep the problem at bay until a more solid answer is found. The cheaters may be able to keep on developing their 'cheating' technique, but if they're able to keep one step ahead of the players then there's something seriously wrong with the manufacturing - because a major corporate paintgun manufacturer with all of the smart ideas that they have for COPS eyes or whatever smarta$$ new feature they add to the paintgun, they should be able to stay a step ahead of the end user.

I would fully support any disciplinary moves to sort out these cheaters, these people are compromising not only the image of the sport or their paintball reputation but the LIVES of other human beings, just to be able to get that extra ball per second out of their barrel or shoot an extra 5 yards!! I don't understand how they can't realise that their 'Adantage' just isn't worth the risk. Not the risk of getting cought - but unintentionally injuring another player no matter how serioud. They will still be held responsible. Especially once it's found their marker is rigged or whatever. If the problem is as big as I'm under the impression it might be, then we can't just sit back and wait for something to happen before anybody starts to take it seriously. Some serious solution have to be sought out.

 

[Alex Hicks.]

Surely the solution falls at gun manufaturers. They should no-longer make these programable boards and each new board could be tagged at manufature to show it's legal. Boards could then be sprayed with a paint that changes colour with heat to prevent tampering (this does already easy) this would show up if someone attemps to resolder the board.
Anyone using these devices should not just be banned from a particular event but should be prevented from playing paintball again in any form, as it's both dangerous and bad for the image of the sport.
Another thing to look out for is someone showed me a mod for a reg he'd made to enable the velocity to be adjusted by rotating the reg it'self despite having a normal adjuster and a tourney lock on the bottom of it. He was only a rec player but I'm sure players on the tourney circuit use the same idea.

Alex

 

[Collier]

1 such board is the Gabriel board you can set how the board fuctions(burt rate F/A etc) at trigger level.
I agree that the answer lies with frequent on field chrono/Marker inspections and the manufacturers to not make these kinds of boards.
As for game disruption it wouldn't be too bad would it?


Paul.

 

[Collier]

Originally posted by Alex Hicks.
Surely the solution falls at gun manufaturers. They should no-longer make these programable boards and each new board could be tagged at manufature to show it's legal. Boards could then be sprayed with a paint that changes colour with heat to prevent tampering (this does already easy) this would show up if someone attemps to resolder the board.
Anyone using these devices should not just be banned from a particular event but should be prevented from playing paintball again in any form, as it's both dangerous and bad for the image of the sport.
Another thing to look out for is someone showed me a mod for a reg he'd made to enable the velocity to be adjusted by rotating the reg it'self despite having a normal adjuster and a tourney lock on the bottom of it. He was only a rec player but I'm sure players on the tourney circuit use the same idea.

Alex

May only be a rec player but over 300 fps is still over 300fps!
look at the IR3 WDP new people were hacking into the boards , unlocking the coding etc, hell there was a thread on paintball city on how to do it! hence now the IR3 has a tamperproof case protecting the board!

Paul