Days of My Life: Whose NPPL am I sucking on?

[Beaker]

Originally posted by Robbo
but I tell ya this much, to engage him further is futile if you seek any form of clarity to proceedings.
Pete

understood - I'm off out to play poker anyway

Laters Pete.

 

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by Beaker


I am not saying that any promoter is easily able to walk into a venue such as Crystal Palace and say "yeah, I'll take it" but if you have the defeatest attitude that it isn't possible then people will never ask.

It ain't even that hard. I remember discussing several potential sites with the organisers of the DMAs, and one place that came up was the Amsterdam Olympic Stadium. True, the price is higher than the avarage sportsground, but that is (at least partially) offset by the fact that you don't need to bring in extra facilities such as toilets, because stadiums are already equipped with such things. The main reason that the Amsterdam Olympic Stadium didn't work out, is because since it's been renovated there are a number of businesses that have a glass wall facing into the stadium. This would have required so much extra netting, that the cost for that became prohibitive.
Most of these venues are basically "up for rent".

 

[Wadidiz]

Re: heh, yeah...

Originally posted by Beaker
Because I just don't know - what is the Pro/Am/Nov entry fees in PSP?

Because this year it's been about $1200/$1000/$700 for Millennium.

The PSP entry fees are now (according to their website) $1750 for 10-player and $500 for 5-player, across the board. This past season had entry fees of $2350 for pro teams. Interesting that the fees are going down for pros (and up for the others). That comes out to $175 per player compared to $171 for Millennium. Pretty damned close. But cheaper for ams and novs for Mill.

I calculated the revenues brought in by entry fees for this year's World Cup and came up with pretty close to $500,000.

Steve

 

[Fab81]

I think you're misreading what I'm saying...

Originally posted by raehl

Ever tried to book a non-paintball location for a paintball event? I'm betting not, and I bet you don't consider all of the obstacles involved - how are you going to run netting? How are you going to keep the place clean? How are you going to convince the owner of the facility that you can run netting and keep the place clean without tearing up the facilities? My #1 obstacle to running paintball events on college campuses? Groundkeepers don't want me sinking poles into the ground. It's possible to do outdoor netting without poles, but until very recently (like 6 weeks ago) it was extremely expensive to do so.

People don't take into account the big picture. NPPL got started in the early 90's, back when the political atmosphere in the US was still very "Paintball is a bad bad war game played by nuts in the woods". There also wern't a lot of teams, so that meant when you had an event, paintball fields and cow pastures were your options. Each year, when you're faced with the decision of whether to abandon last year and try something totally new (which is expensive) or to tweak what you did last year to be better, it's almost impossible to choose anything other than tweaking when you factor in the extra expenses of change. Especially when customer satisfaction is high.

Millenium grew in an entirely different manner. It (apparently) pulled together some good individual events in a time period and location where it was much easier to start with stadiums, and thus much easier to stay with stadiums.

and then there's the whole issue of size. Have you been to world cup? there were what, 10, 12 10-man fields this year? And you want to do that at a stadium location?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.


People need to understand that as you increase the size of the venue that you need, the number of venues available decreases exponentially and the price goes up exponentially.

Anyway, it's easy to say things should be better. It's much more difficult to be the guy who has to decide whether it's better to have an event that can accomodate 200 teams at $1750 each or 100 teams at $1750 each to 200 teams at $3000 each. skyball charges $700-800 for a 5-man team, and that's only possible because they use the location 16 hours a day and charge $80-90 for a case of paint. Now try finding a location you can use 16 hours a day AND have 12 10-man fields on AND that people will pay an extra $100 each for (assuming they only shoot 2 cases of paint and were only paying $40 for it before, which isn't the case for a lot of teams).

The vast majority of people are happy with PSP events most of the time. they obviously feel that their experience is worth their money, or they wouldn't come back. Things will change only when two things happen: 1) The customers demand it and 2) The customers are willing to PAY for it. Having a top-of-the-line product doesn't really matter if it costs to much to manufacture that no one can afford it.


This year there will be two options. People will vote with their dollars, and when it comes down to voting with dollars, the results arn't necessarily the same as when voting on internet webboards. We'll know in a year whether customers are really demanding change, AND are willing to pay for that change (or if a promoter can REALLY offer that change at no incrimental cost). What sounds really good and simple on a web board doesn't necessarily work in reality.

But hey, if you think I'm wrong, go start your own league. Gamble your own money instead of demanding someone else gamble theirs.

- Chris

Do you really think that it's easier to book a non-paintball location in Europe ?

Do you know that there was 120 7 man teams in toulouse on 5 fields, and 10 premilinary games, not only 8 like in nppl, and that the entry fee is much cheaper than in the nppl, and all was running on time, you even had a case of fruit and soft-drinks per team.
There was advertising from the airport to the City centre...

I don't take example of the campaign cup (who was at crystal palace), the joy master (who was in Stockholm centre on grass)...
but they were really good event too.

So when you say its almost impossible to do better that what we heard from the psp, its hard to believe, at least they could do at least some promotion.

Fabien

 

[raehl]

Gah.

I'm not disagreeing with your thesis, I'm just suggesting you're missing/ignoring some information if (as too many people have been implying) you think change is easy.

Seriously, if you guys have all the answers, why don't you start your own league? We've got a web board full of people who think that 1) Promoters are making a financial killing and 2) It's quite possible to run killer events without increasing costs.

So why arn't you guys do it? Do you not believe you can do it for the same costs, or do you not believe you'll really make any money?

And Pete, I'm no more guilty of liking to see my name than you are buddy. I'm not the one who starts whole threads on this stuff.

- Chris

 

[Beaker]

Not one of us has said putting on a paintball tournament is easy, in fact I know it's bloody difficult from many a conversation with Niall and a few with Laurent.

What we are saying is that if you are going to do it anyway (which the PSP are) - we are just pointing out its not that much harder to do it "properly".

I would love to organise an event - but unfortunately I don't have the resources or connections to make it possible and a success. But if you are trying to say that the PSP don't have those resources/connections then that's a pretty flimsy point.

And as for the "well you do better" school playground stance - the NPPL are giving it a go by the looks of things and if they can take on the Euro ideals I would bet they just will....by a very very long way.

 

[raehl]

That's where I disagree.

Sort of. I'm not saying that it's necessarily much more difficult from a WORK standpoint, but I think the added expenses are not trivial, and that the experience of the people involved say people would rather pay the same price for something they're satisfied with than pay more for a chance at something better. Or, in the very least, if you're doing ok at what you're doing and your customers are mostly satisfied with it, it doesn't pay to rock the boat.

Keep in mind that change doesn't necessarily lead to improvement. We've got one group taking the tried/safe path, and one group taking a more risky new path. We'll see who "wins" (I suspect and hope both will be successful), but having a group who is maintaining the status quo, even if there's improvement to be had, is NOT a bad thing, and certainly not something they should be getting **** for.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the.. in this case, Atlantic.


As for your playground comment, no, you can't start something PSP overnight, but you can. Startig a league doesn't take any more resrouces than time.


- Chris

 

[paintyerass]

I would say the main problem is success, look at the number of teams drawn, they can run a crap event , sure some people
whine but the events continue to grow. Until they see a downturn
in attendance why should they change. Its not rocket science,
reverse engeeineer a succesful event ( dosent even need to be a Millenium) and copy it. But why should Promotors do that, serious
lack of motivation I say.

 

[raehl]

right... it's simple.

Some people have a product that works. Why change the product for the few who don't like it at the risk of upsetting those who do?


We have trouble with getting big-name corporations involved in paintball for a similar reason - they may reach new customers by being involved with paintball, but they're not willing to do that at the risk of losing customers who won't like the change.


Just because some customers would rather have Cool Ranch doritos doesn't mean you stop making original doritos for the people who will still pay for them.


- Chris

 

[paintyerass]

Im not proposing wholesale change, just fix the glareing mistakes
when you know the number of teams attending it dosent take a
PHd, to calculate how many Portajohns you need, when you know the layout of the facility it shouldnt be to hard to arrange
that the air and player setup areas are conveiniently located.
A bove all else SCHEDUALING!!