Days of My Life: Whose NPPL am I sucking on?

[Fab81]

I'm not saying that it isn't possible..

Originally posted by raehl

I've got a question: How long has millenium been around? Were their first events as good as their events now? Did they start with 20 7-man teams andbuild up, or did they start with 200-man teams and 200 5-man teams?

I get the feeling you guys arn't comparing the same things.


- Chris

The millennium series began in 1999, regrouping the major european tournament. So these tournaments were existing before the series.
The first events were not as good as now, but they were more than ok for the most parts. The first really succesfull event was Toulouse in 1999 that has set standard for the others. And since then, the quality of each tournament was better end better (I think its why the millennium became so succesful) each year with a growing number of teams.
In 1999, I think there were between 40 and 65 teams at each tournament.

I can't compare to the nppl since I never played one of its event.

 

[Beaker]

Chris,

OMG I honestly can't understand your point of view. You seem prepared to accept the mediocrity (tinged with disappointment) that is the current top flight US circuit than think there could be something better, all from someone who keeps saying how much he thinks paintball could improve.

And as for the age of the Milleniums, that's about the worst defence on planet, How long has the NPPL/PSP been around and the WC is the best you've ended up with, purleese????

You have obviously never been to a good tournament, be it Millennium or otherwise. Vegas was a shambles for reasons well documented elsewhere and not because they were trying a Millennium style event.

A Millennium is only something totally different in that is a well run tournament with great venues and the emphasis much more on the players than NPPL events, it still has teams that require air, paint, refs and good value for money.

not too much to ask is it?

 

[raehl]

I think you're misreading what I'm saying...

My point is that it's REALLY EASY to talk about change and demand change. ACCOMPLISHING change is much more difficult, and I think too many people are all too willing to gloss over the details. The argument seems to be "Millenium can do it, so everyone can too!" and that's simply not a realistic argument.

And yes, I do talk a lot about how the industry can improve. But have you ever run a large tournament or a large league? The league I run probably does more events per year than any other league on the planet, we'll probably get close to 20 this season, although they are mostly small events. I'm also probably one of a handful or two of people who's put together a national level league (with plenty of help, no doubt about that either.) But that leaves me with a much better perspective on the other side of the player-promoter fence than most players have.

Ever tried to book a non-paintball location for a paintball event? I'm betting not, and I bet you don't consider all of the obstacles involved - how are you going to run netting? How are you going to keep the place clean? How are you going to convince the owner of the facility that you can run netting and keep the place clean without tearing up the facilities? My #1 obstacle to running paintball events on college campuses? Groundkeepers don't want me sinking poles into the ground. It's possible to do outdoor netting without poles, but until very recently (like 6 weeks ago) it was extremely expensive to do so.

People don't take into account the big picture. NPPL got started in the early 90's, back when the political atmosphere in the US was still very "Paintball is a bad bad war game played by nuts in the woods". There also wern't a lot of teams, so that meant when you had an event, paintball fields and cow pastures were your options. Each year, when you're faced with the decision of whether to abandon last year and try something totally new (which is expensive) or to tweak what you did last year to be better, it's almost impossible to choose anything other than tweaking when you factor in the extra expenses of change. Especially when customer satisfaction is high.

Millenium grew in an entirely different manner. It (apparently) pulled together some good individual events in a time period and location where it was much easier to start with stadiums, and thus much easier to stay with stadiums.

and then there's the whole issue of size. Have you been to world cup? there were what, 10, 12 10-man fields this year? And you want to do that at a stadium location?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.


People need to understand that as you increase the size of the venue that you need, the number of venues available decreases exponentially and the price goes up exponentially.

Anyway, it's easy to say things should be better. It's much more difficult to be the guy who has to decide whether it's better to have an event that can accomodate 200 teams at $1750 each or 100 teams at $1750 each to 200 teams at $3000 each. skyball charges $700-800 for a 5-man team, and that's only possible because they use the location 16 hours a day and charge $80-90 for a case of paint. Now try finding a location you can use 16 hours a day AND have 12 10-man fields on AND that people will pay an extra $100 each for (assuming they only shoot 2 cases of paint and were only paying $40 for it before, which isn't the case for a lot of teams).

The vast majority of people are happy with PSP events most of the time. they obviously feel that their experience is worth their money, or they wouldn't come back. Things will change only when two things happen: 1) The customers demand it and 2) The customers are willing to PAY for it. Having a top-of-the-line product doesn't really matter if it costs to much to manufacture that no one can afford it.


This year there will be two options. People will vote with their dollars, and when it comes down to voting with dollars, the results arn't necessarily the same as when voting on internet webboards. We'll know in a year whether customers are really demanding change, AND are willing to pay for that change (or if a promoter can REALLY offer that change at no incrimental cost). What sounds really good and simple on a web board doesn't necessarily work in reality.

But hey, if you think I'm wrong, go start your own league. Gamble your own money instead of demanding someone else gamble theirs.

- Chris

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Beaker
Chris,

OMG I honestly can't understand your point of view. You seem prepared to accept the mediocrity (tinged with disappointment) that is the current top flight US circuit than think there could be something better, all from someone who keeps saying how much he thinks paintball could improve.

And as for the age of the Milleniums, that's about the worst defence on planet, How long has the NPPL/PSP been around and the WC is the best you've ended up with, purleese????

You have obviously never been to a good tournament, be it Millennium or otherwise. Vegas was a shambles for reasons well documented elsewhere and not because they were trying a Millennium style event.

A Millennium is only something totally different in that is a well run tournament with great venues and the emphasis much more on the players than NPPL events, it still has teams that require air, paint, refs and good value for money.

not too much to ask is it?

Damned well-put, Beaker. I couldn't have said it better.

I have only attended, played in, reffed in and/or worked in 3 Millenniums, but from everything I've observed and heard they were very good from day 1. There is just an atmosphere of quality, sportsmanship and fairness. Then the grass lawns and attractive venues. If there have been some lacks in the judging I think it is more from the overall lack of high-level experience in comparison to NPPL player-judges. But the desire has always been strong. And Millennium fields are required to have more judges (minimum 8 per field compared to 4 for NPPL 5-man and 6 for NPPL 10-man).

As for NPPL, I have only attended, played in, reffed in and/or worked in 3 events, two of which were World Cups. I must say that from playing in all three, I was totally pleased with the reffing I experienced. I did see some fields that had shoddy, lazy reffing but the teams I played with never got bad calls. But I picked up a general feeling that every penny was being squeezed too hard. That corners were going to be cut in any possible way so that costs would be less. This, to me, was epitomized in the final award ceremony being held without lights and a few other things of that nature. Additionally, every European I have ever talked to who played in the World Cup complained about the reffing and was generally disappointed. Is that just the human tendency to complain?

My two cents.

Steve

 

[Robbo]

I think you're misreading what I'm saying...

Originally posted by raehl
My point is that it's REALLY EASY to talk about change and demand change. ACCOMPLISHING change is much more difficult, and I think too many people are all too willing to gloss over the details. The argument seems to be "Millenium can do it, so everyone can too!" and that's simply not a realistic argument.

And yes, I do talk a lot about how the industry can improve. But have you ever run a large tournament or a large league? The league I run probably does more events per year than any other league on the planet, we'll probably get close to 20 this season, although they are mostly small events. I'm also probably one of a handful or two of people who's put together a national level league (with plenty of help, no doubt about that either.) But that leaves me with a much better perspective on the other side of the player-promoter fence than most players have.

Ever tried to book a non-paintball location for a paintball event? I'm betting not, and I bet you don't consider all of the obstacles involved - how are you going to run netting? How are you going to keep the place clean? How are you going to convince the owner of the facility that you can run netting and keep the place clean without tearing up the facilities? My #1 obstacle to running paintball events on college campuses? Groundkeepers don't want me sinking poles into the ground. It's possible to do outdoor netting without poles, but until very recently (like 6 weeks ago) it was extremely expensive to do so.

People don't take into account the big picture. NPPL got started in the early 90's, back when the political atmosphere in the US was still very "Paintball is a bad bad war game played by nuts in the woods". There also wern't a lot of teams, so that meant when you had an event, paintball fields and cow pastures were your options. Each year, when you're faced with the decision of whether to abandon last year and try something totally new (which is expensive) or to tweak what you did last year to be better, it's almost impossible to choose anything other than tweaking when you factor in the extra expenses of change. Especially when customer satisfaction is high.

Millenium grew in an entirely different manner. It (apparently) pulled together some good individual events in a time period and location where it was much easier to start with stadiums, and thus much easier to stay with stadiums.

and then there's the whole issue of size. Have you been to world cup? there were what, 10, 12 10-man fields this year? And you want to do that at a stadium location?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.


People need to understand that as you increase the size of the venue that you need, the number of venues available decreases exponentially and the price goes up exponentially.

Anyway, it's easy to say things should be better. It's much more difficult to be the guy who has to decide whether it's better to have an event that can accomodate 200 teams at $1750 each or 100 teams at $1750 each to 200 teams at $3000 each. skyball charges $700-800 for a 5-man team, and that's only possible because they use the location 16 hours a day and charge $80-90 for a case of paint. Now try finding a location you can use 16 hours a day AND have 12 10-man fields on AND that people will pay an extra $100 each for (assuming they only shoot 2 cases of paint and were only paying $40 for it before, which isn't the case for a lot of teams).

The vast majority of people are happy with PSP events most of the time. they obviously feel that their experience is worth their money, or they wouldn't come back. Things will change only when two things happen: 1) The customers demand it and 2) The customers are willing to PAY for it. Having a top-of-the-line product doesn't really matter if it costs to much to manufacture that no one can afford it.


This year there will be two options. People will vote with their dollars, and when it comes down to voting with dollars, the results arn't necessarily the same as when voting on internet webboards. We'll know in a year whether customers are really demanding change, AND are willing to pay for that change (or if a promoter can REALLY offer that change at no incrimental cost). What sounds really good and simple on a web board doesn't necessarily work in reality.

But hey, if you think I'm wrong, go start your own league. Gamble your own money instead of demanding someone else gamble theirs.

- Chris

My God, what a lot of ole bollocks you sometimes talk Chris !!!
U could talk the frikkin hind legs off a donkey !!!
I have never yet encountered (apart from one other) a person who talks so much and says so little.
Chris, you are young, you lack experience and knowledge, you have a gift for writing and for expression, of that there is no doubt but please spare us the constant justifications of half hearted, ill thought out premises.
Now it may well impress your little college buddies but it don't work here !
All you've accomplished in that last post is a disappearing act up your own ass and left me contemplating the real reason why you post so much coz it ain't to enlighten us.
I'm bored !!!
Beak, you can play with him for while
Robbo

 

[raehl]

heh, yeah...

Normally when I rant I trim down the result significantly, but it's Thanksgiving and I'm feeling lazy so you got the whole thing.

Short version:

You're not comparing the same things. NPPL/PSP events are significantly larger, and a 2x size increase is a 4x cost increase. Staium-type venues that could handle a World Cup size event are very few, and very expensive.

Most players are satisfied with the experience they get for their money, and couldn't care less if the industry "improves". They just want to have fun when they go play, and they don't particularly care to pay an extra $500-$1000 for "the advancement of the sport". That's the silent majority of players. They'll go to convenient, less expensive events, whether it's in a cow pasture or in a stadium most could care less. That's the reality, if not the reality reflected on the web boards.


- Chris

 

[Beaker]

I was responding to

My point was that it's much safer to go with something you know works over something new. Last time PSP tried something new (Vegas, which was an attempt, all be it a very unsuccessful one, at a Millenium style event) they got raked over the coals for it, not exactly a big motivation to try something new again.

Which I took to mean you were prepared to not try something new for fear of failiure. That is the point I can't understand.

I am not saying that any promoter is easily able to walk into a venue such as Crystal Palace and say "yeah, I'll take it" but if you have the defeatest attitude that it isn't possible then people will never ask.

I will admit my posts might come over that the venue is eveything - I apologise because they shouldn't as it isn't. The major thing a tournament needs is good organisation for every aspect, the schedules, the team info, the refs, the fields, the netting, the toilets, the players area. Now the Millennium isn't perfect, but from pretty much every account I've heard first hand or read, a large majority put the Millennium as a better organised series than the PSP (and they've had plenty of years to "tweak what they did last year to be better").

And as for teams being happy, until the have the option and see what's possible, then of course they'll come back, paintball's a drug like that.

So in this I'm firmly with the NPPL, they wont be perfect first time, but if they actually do learn their lessons and dare to do the unthinkable, then they will suceed and show the US scene quite what it's missing out on.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Beaker
I was responding to



Which I took to mean you were prepared to not try something new for fear of failiure. That is the point I can't understand.

I am not saying that any promoter is easily able to walk into a venue such as Crystal Palace and say "yeah, I'll take it" but if you have the defeatest attitude that it isn't possible then people will never ask.

I will admit my posts might come over that the venue is eveything - I apologise because they shouldn't as it isn't. The major thing a tournament needs is good organisation for every aspect, the schedules, the team info, the refs, the fields, the netting, the toilets, the players area. Now the Millennium isn't perfect, but from pretty much every account I've heard first hand or read, a large majority put the Millennium as a better organised series than the PSP (and they've had plenty of years to "tweak what they did last year to be better").

And as for teams being happy, until the have the option and see what's possible, then of course they'll come back, paintball's a drug like that.

So in this I'm firmly with the NPPL, they wont be perfect first time, but if they actually do learn their lessons and dare to do the unthinkable, then they will suceed and show the US scene quite what it's missing out on.

Beak, there comes a point in time when you can state the frikkin obvious just sooo many times, and if they ain't gonna listen, well, they ain’t gonna listen.
The reasons for this, well in Chris's case, it isn't for lack of intelligence; could it be he just don't like losing a debate and cannot see his cause is lost?
It could also be he is being contrary for the sake of it and lastly, he could just like seeing his name and words all over the place.
You choose, but I tell ya this much, to engage him further is futile if you seek any form of clarity to proceedings.
Pete

 

[Wadidiz]

heh, yeah...

Originally posted by raehl
Most players are satisfied with the experience they get for their money, and couldn't care less if the industry "improves". They just want to have fun when they go play, and they don't particularly care to pay an extra $500-$1000 for "the advancement of the sport". That's the silent majority of players. They'll go to convenient, less expensive events, whether it's in a cow pasture or in a stadium most could care less. That's the reality, if not the reality reflected on the web boards.
- Chris

Chris, you're right about something you said before: for the American players the proof will be in the pudding. If Chuck can get an event going to Millennium standards or better for the same or less money then players are going to get spoiled and go there.

Sure players want to "just have fun" but I must tell you that it is a hellofa lot more fun to play on flat, grass lawns without cow-patties and fire-ants. To have grand-stands full of spectators. To have more than 3 or 4 judges on a field, and ones who care about what they're doing. To have some live bands, carneval procession or cheerleaders. And announcers for the finals.

But, no use casting pearls before swine...

Steve

 

[Beaker]

heh, yeah...

Originally posted by raehl
You're not comparing the same things. NPPL/PSP events are significantly larger, and a 2x size increase is a 4x cost increase.

er.... Campaign had 7 fields with 7 setts of netting, 7 sets of judges, 7 sets of infrastructure and put through what 140 teams?? (I can't actually remember) The World cup had what 10 fields - that's only 3 extra sets of everything and twice the teams so over twice the entry collected. Plus the fees for the trade show would be that much more because of the size. There is the principle of economies of scale - so if you're saving on all of this what's stopping you paying 4x as much for the venue to put in/around?

Because I just don't know - what is the Pro/Am/Nov entry fees in PSP?

Because this year it's been about $1200/$1000/$700 for Millennium.

Originally posted by raehl
...and they don't particularly care to pay an extra $500-$1000 for "the advancement of the sport".

I'm pretty sure they're already paying it and then some but I'd not call profit for promoters advancement.