Days of My Life: Whose NPPL am I sucking on?

[Baca Loco]

Wrong, and wrong.

Originally posted by raehl
1) Tournament ball is *NOT* the kind that gets the most exposure, there's your first mistake. World Cup or SPPLAT Shatnerball? Shatnerball hands down. More participants, *MUCH* wider exposure. Hell, at this point, I think there are more college paintball articles in paintball publications each month than there are NPPL/PSP ones, and definitely more in the non-paintball media.
- Chris

More participants, eh, Chris? Care to quote a figure?
Assuming (for the sake of argument alone) you are correct about the wider exposure for Shatnerball where was it? And what good did it do? In fact what benefit is there to making Big Game, scenario games part of the public conscience with respect to pball generally?
College pball?

 

[raehl]

As I recall...

Somewhere in the multiple thousands. It was advertised as 4, but I don't think it got that high.

It's not so much the big game or scenario game. It's Will Shatner being on Conan O'Brien (Late night show after Jay Leno) saying he's going to go play paintball. Or Mancow (syndicated radio host with millions of listeners) saying he's going to play. If 70 year old shatner is going to play paintball, it can't be bad, and for a good few months he was out there pimping it in print and television interviews, as well as his website, etc. Thats lots of people who got to hear about paintball in a way not associated with vandalism.


And yes, college (and high school) ball has a similar effect, although we obviously don't have Shatner's reach.


- Chris

 

[Buddha 3]

I'm starting to feel like Pete now. So I'll call it a day after this, since you seem to be stuck in some mystical land of make belief.

A lot of people that don't play paintball DO go and see what the fuss is about when there's a large tourney nearby. I've seen it happen, you haven't. Perhaps that says something about the tournaments you've attended. The ones I go to, do get promoted to the outside world. WHen the Millennium circus hit Amsterdam, there were a good many billboards plastered al over town. Toulouse attracts shedloads of non paintball crowds.
And the people that get the word paintball in their heads by looking at mr. Shatner's website, or by listening to Mancow on the radio and get interested, may pick up a magazine. Now when you're a first time reader of a paintball magazine, which one do you think they'll go for? The goodlooking glossy ones, such as PGI or Facefull, or some piece of crap that looks worse than my toilet paper after use, but which costs the same? I have a good idea which one they'll pick...And guess what they'll see in there, loads of tournament stuff, little of the other stuff. Like it or not, tournament is paintball's business card (****, you more or less said so yourself). And hey, so far most, if not all the outside money has gone into tournament play, that is a stone cold fact, what you say is mere speculation on your part.

From a lot of the stuff you have said so far, I can see where you are coming from though. You are a crusader. You think you can explain things through the nice and neat models that you have in your head. You are still young, and you have learned business models in a classroom. Trust me when I say that most of the stuff they tell you in college goes out of the window when you enter the world of real business. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Baca, he's yours.

 

[raehl]

Well, I'll just say....

I did engineering in college. No business from the classroom. I have to laugh a bit at the age thing though, I highly doubt you guys are much older than I am, nor am I sure how exactly you figure you have more business experience. I'm pretty sure I've spent more time dealing with out-of-industry sponsor types than anyone else here though.

I agree on the promotion - that's something lacking stateside. Assuming we do better with the weather at Nationals this year I'm hoping we hae a much better non-player turnout.

But if you were at Cup, or Chicago Open (the two NPPL/PSP events I was at this year), there were very few non-paintball people present outside of staff. Americans just don't behave like that - they don't get off their butts and spend a saturday to try something new without VERY good reason. We'd be better if they went and played recball at their local field than if they went to a tournament anyway.

I'm beginning to suspect this is more of a difference in US vs. European perspective than anything.

As for magazines, we don't have PGI or Faceful on the newsstands here.


- Chris

 

[Beaker]

....hence why I have stopped posting on this thread.

Chris, you obviousy believe that a set of circumstances exist in and around paintball and the scope of organising tournaments that we here do not agree with.

We do not agree that organising things properly is as immpossible as you say, we've been to tournaments that prove that all these things are possible.

We do not agree that the general tournament crowd is as ambivalent to progress as you say they are. The US has not, until now and the NPPL, been exposed to the possibility of events that we have.

And above all I do not see a single post from a joe public tournament player supporting any of your points.

Think what you like, I'm out of here........

 

[manike]

Shatnerball didn't have that many people actually attend to play. Maybe 1500 or so. I was there

BUT it got out a positive image of paintball to many thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands due to the coverage William Shatner gave it on TV shows for months and due to ManCow blasting it all over the radio.

Bill Shatner showed how much fun it was and if a 70year old man could play and enjoy it, how open it was to all. Heck even his daugther and wife got hooked on the firing range!

So allthough there may not have been that many people there, I have no doubt it had a helpful and big impact on the generally unaware public.

Chris, there is a big difference between events in the USA and Europe. If Chuck can get what we have here into the USA you will see how impressive it is for us and why a lot of people here just don't agree with you. As Beaker put it, we've experienced what we want so we don't have to believe it's not possible or too costly etc.

Come play Toulouse next year... See a whole city of people (players and not) get behind the event, know what you are doing when they hear the word paintball, and turn out in their thousands to watch the finals...

manike

 

[raehl]

I didn't say improvement wasn't possible. I'm saying there isn't a conspiracy to screw over the player, and that things are the way they are now for a REASON. (Well, several of them.)

I didn't say the general tournament
crowd was ambivalent to progress. I'm saying that too many tournament players think progress depends on stuff related to tournament paintball - or more specifically, tournament promoters. That's simply not true. A lot of the progress war needs to be fought far away from tournaments. And a lot of the thigns that prevent progress are actually caused by tournament players (not all of them, but some.) And a lot of tournament problems are blown out of proportion by players who think toilets at world cup are what's holding the industry back. That's laughable.

And I don't see a single post from Joe Public tournament player at all - they stopped reading after page one.


The lack of stadium locations is a problem for ONE group of people and ONE group only: Tournament players. That's it. Is playing a stadium event pretty damned sweet? You bet - I've played Skyball every year for the past three and loved it. Maybe that's something more people are willing to pay for. But it is not something that is very relevant to industry growth. Whether World Cup is on a cow pasture or in a stadium ranks very far down on the list of obstacles to paintball's growth. You guys are looking at all this through tournament player goggles. It's not all about tournaments - it's not even close.


- Chris

 

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by raehl



The lack of stadium locations is a problem for ONE group of people and ONE group only: Tournament players. That's it. Is playing a stadium event pretty damned sweet? You bet - I've played Skyball every year for the past three and loved it. Maybe that's something more people are willing to pay for. But it is not something that is very relevant to industry growth. Whether World Cup is on a cow pasture or in a stadium ranks very far down on the list of obstacles to paintball's growth. You guys are looking at all this through tournament player goggles. It's not all about tournaments - it's not even close.


- Chris

And this is where you proved for the whole world to see that you have very little true business sense...(but hey, you're an engineer, so you're forgiven)
How the hell can you not see the difference a stadium makes compared to a cow pasture? It is not about the players in this case, it is about anything BUT the players! Players already travel god knows how far to attend events, most of them get hire cars or something at the place they're staying. They don't mind the little drive into the countryside. Sure, playing in a big fancy stadium is an added bonus, but as long as the fields are relatively flat, we ain't complaining. Now, what makes all the difference, is the location. A stadium or other sportspark, by it's very nature is close to town, only a few minutes away. Joe Public can just wonder over, or sit in his car for five minutes and be there! A cow pasture by it's very nature is way out of town. It takes an effort to get there. Wonder why you see so few outsiders there? There you go! Easy, ain't it? And if those people that DO make the effort to come over have to wade through muck, and can't even follow the games for a lack of stands, they sure as hell ain't coming back ever again.
It really is THAT simple.

No, there is no conspiracy to screw over the players. There is however a scheme to make money the easy way, the short term way. Which works fine when there's no competition. There are now new kids on the block, and if they can live up to their promises, PSP will have to make some major improvements.

Oh, and it ain't about age. I ain't that old yet. It's about experience. And in business, I have plenty. Also when it comes to dealing with outside sponsorship. I'm currently imvolved in setting up a paintball event that's being paid for by TPG, the Dutch equivalent of US mail.

Now I'm really out. I think.

 

[Wadidiz]

My mannic nature is causing my pessimistic side to kick back in. Now I run the risk of getting both sides of this debate going against me.

I'm optimistic that a good program can greatly improve the reffing sitation in big-league tournament PB as it exists today. And that other improvements discussed here can and will happen.

But I'm really pessimistic about PB ever becoming a widely-viewed spectator sport. Hate to burst your bubble, it just ain't in the cards. It can become more spectator-exciting through improved formats like X-Ball and the video-recording can get much better, but let's face it: that is only going to be appealing to those who are already initiated to PB.

PB is first and foremost a participatory sport. It is the greatest fun you can have with your clothes on. It is through participation that it has grown and will continue to grow.

Sure, it will be great when it gets about the same spectator status as Moto-X. I doubt it would ever get the spectator status of say formula racing or pro golf. It is for the players, families, friends, PB journalists, sponsors and spectators for a long time to come.

The main entry ports for participation and arousal of curiosity are mainly:

1. Rec-ball, e.g. company outings, birthdays, bachelor and bachelorette parties, big-games, etc.

2. Tournaments for those who got hooked from one of the above occasions.

3. County-fair type events where people can target-shoot and/or see demo games.

In the future more people will be attracted to the above through mostly word-of-mouth (like today) and increased media exposure. But it will always be a fringe thing.

But look-it, the sum of all these last few pages of posts is simply this:

1. A new, realistic program for greatly improving reffing has got to be implemented. (Already much better in Millennium.)

2. Better, more-comfortable venues have to happen in America.

3. Better overall organization of the events (regarding schedules especially) has got to happen in USA.

The American league that makes the most headway towards the above is the one that should and, I hope, will win.

Steve

 

[Beaker]

bottom line is :

We have seen European events and we have either seen or spoken at length to many players who have been to US events.

You have never been to a Euro event, you say you've not got Facefull or PGI for coverage and yet you pass judgement on them.

.....see where I'm going with this

Oh, and in this context I am not just advocating that all these things are necessary for the advancement of the sport - but that these things give teams value for money - look at Wadidiz's post eariler about the comparison of both.

If these events happen in the US then every promoter in the US will need to raise thier game or be left standing - and that includes your NCPA - or is that what you're afraid of?