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Chronicles of War

JoseDominguez

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Oct 25, 2002
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Just because it's not happening here doesn't make it less offensive, I'd be just as offended by a Vietnam theme here as I would be by a Falklands theme over there, it's the idea of it being connected to paintball at all that bothers me.
And I'll say it again, I have nothing against rec-ball or scenarios I love playing paintball no matter what, my problem is with the use of real conflicts, when you introduce that, then you are pretending to kill people, your not just taking out players, your shooting a german/american/frenchman.
And before anyone asks, I consider the likes of South-park etc... a bit of fun, the US and Canada aren't at war, so it's just a fantasy.
 

DizWolf

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Nov 20, 2002
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Originally posted by FUna

All those game glorify a fantasy of warfare and are (let me stress this point) no different from paintball scenario games whether they be based on real or ficticious events except in your minds because it is YOUR sport and you don't personally want it in YOUR sport. If you are for getting it out of paintball, you must be for banning all these games and more including a vast majority of top selling video games that have been socially accepted for years.
Look. My grandfather died in a concentration camp. I dont think it was entertaining. That was a Long fall off the guard tower.
 

JoseDominguez

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Listen, I've read as much of this crap as I can, I spent the worst period of my life trekking through stinking jungle, fighting off sickness and things you don't want to hear about, I lost two good friends and took three lives, I wasn't proud, and I didn't get any medals when I got home.
It was 1993 and I'm sure as hell never going back packing in Australia again.

Anyway, I can't be bothered to argue anymore, 'cos it's boiled down to I'm offended...oh no you can't be (again).
 

headrock6

Bloody Yanks!!
Jun 5, 2002
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Another American Perspective

Its 2:00 am here and for I just noticed this and after reading through it I must say im appalled by some of the responses this thread has generated..

As a soon to be history teacher ive had the pleasure of meeting 5 Holocaust survivors through my school..Thier stories of life in those camps would make you cringe...Now im not gonna go into a Holocaust rant but most if not all should have a good understanding of the horror that occured during that time..

Furby-1.2 million men,women and children were slaughtered like animals in Auschwitz and you say LET IT GO..That was an estimated 6000 people a day...Then you call it a tourist attraction!!This isnt the Grand Canyon or Disneyland buddy...

Would you like to explain to those survivors the purpose of wearing SS uniforms and playing Hitler speeches at a paintball game??To be honest im suprised those kids didn't have a paintball marker jammed up thier asses..You think that **** would fly here in NY!!Ha,those kids would have lasted all but 10 seconds before thier Hitler speeches we're implanted where they couldnt retrieve them without medical assistance..

Now I dont blame the people for playing these games,because im pretty sure a majority are just there to play ball and enjoy themselves for the day regardless of the scenario..Who I blame is the organizer, who knows exactly what he's selling and plays it off saying its to remember his Father...Heres the breakdown, 5% remembrance,95% profit and if you believe otherwise think again..He profits off death anyway you look at it and thats sickening no matter what the situation...


And a report in the NY Times of a paintball event with fully dressed Nazi soldiers,and Hitler speeches playing on radios would bring paintball to its knees...Tell me Joe Lieberman wouldnt have a field day with that article??All it takes is 1 politician to go on a crusade which could set paintball back years..

But look at it this way...I know 1.2 million Jews and over 300,000 Allied soldiers who died in the Battle of Normandy would have had quite a few things to say about these so called re-creations if they we're here today and knew what was going on...Plain and simple,its just not right..
 

Tyger

Old School, New Tricks
Originally posted by SHAG
Tyger you are truely pissing me off. I m sorry but you are. What is the point of all this? Are you looking for attention? Why not give up the BS and just play paintball.
...

So I leave you with this. Enough Tyger. ...Why not just fade away and hear what happened to that Tyger guy or I wonder where he is instead of hearing Thank god that ______ is gone. His views were stupid. What ever you don't sit there and write some silly comback.
**sigh** I just love passive aggressive behavior, don't you all?

First, I'm pissing you off? good. Get pissed. Get mad. Then show me I'm wrong. If I can piss you off, it means you're passionate. That's good. Show me that. I *enjoy* pissing people off, it's one of the only times you get an honest opinion.

Second, am I looking for attention? The smart-ass answer is "I wear ears and a tail when I play. You tell me." The real answer is that I genuinely feel the way I'm talking. No bull****, no PC crap, that's HONESLY my opinion. I'm sorry, but one simply can not just play paintball, not any more. If you could, we wouldn't have this argument at all. The moment someone emulates a political ideology as entertainment, nope. Sorry. red flag.

And am I going to go away? Nope. No cute answer, just the truth.

<<<Other Stuff>>>

I'm going to TRY to avoid making this a political post (too late), but I digress :

FUNA : Good points, but the problem is that paintball wants to appear as a 'sport', it seems. The other problem is that you can touch a lot of nerves when you use real events for entertainment. It's similar to holding a "How to host a murder" party at OJ Simpson's home, if you get my drift.

Furby : If the intent is to make the concentrration camps a 'disney world', then you're right. LEt it rot. But, if the intent is to keep the history alive, keep the memorys going, then preserve it. Keep in mind there's lots of people who are trying to convince the world that the "Holocaust" never happened.

All others, I've already made my feeling clear on this one, and I think we're starting to degenerate into name-calling and general BS here. Back to topic?

It would be easy to recreate a 'war scenario' without the politics tied into existing nationalities. And, actually, I think that the game / sport would be better off without that stuff.

-Tyger
 

SHAG

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Jan 4, 2003
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Hi,

If anything, nothing to the original post was addressed and outside that fact this has become a political discussion.

Politics should not be discussed in Paintball. Why? Cause it shouldn't. All that happens is the fact we generate more emotion and more argument, more fixations on one topic.

Reactments are one thing. What paintballers call "reactments" or scenarios are another. The last time I checked no one had a Civil war looking gun/marker/ what ever PC term you would like to call it, marched in straight lines and shot each other at ten feet away or 3 meters for you metric folks :)

If anything at this level players are going to act like kids again. I don't know about you but before I was into paintball and when I was a kid, my friends and I would venture out into the woods and play war or combat. We would sit there and say we have indestructible armor or something silly to that fact. (Side note: If I still had all the different toys guns I owned, they would literally be worth as much or more than the real things.)

If anything big games and scenarios are an extension of that fact. We sub-consciencly want to relive what we did when we were younger. Personally, let people do what they want. If they want to build up a Model 98 into a super sniper gun, go for it. If someone feels they want to dress the part of a scenario game, go for it. I would guess it would be evil or terrible that someone dressed up like the SS in a game that pits the US vs. German in a battle of Berlin or something, especially if they were playing a role.

The media has had a field day with paintball sometimes. Generally, paintball gets a mixed reaction from the press. You see a show on the Discovery Channel that has a segment of some US forces using Pro-lites to run practice drills. As a matter of fact, there is a third Delta Force movie that has SMG 60s being used in some kind of training. From my understanding of the event of Shattnerball was an attempt to show big game/scenario paintball to the masses. I wished I was able to make the event but my personal life schedule didn't allow it at the time. The negative sides are too many to name. Every so often so a thrill seeker will go out for a "good time' and shoot people or vehicles with their paintball marker.

Push come to shove Paintball will always be known as a "war game". Right now as we speak, there is a very good effort on the part of X ball to get the tourney side of the sport legitimized somewhat. You are right Tyger, tourney ball needs to get its act together. X ball is doing that by giving a standard and a format to follow. However there are still a large number of players out there that play in the backyard or little tourney at all. Therefore, this market is tapped for the big games which is the country folk come to the big city feeling.

I took a few local people to a game up at EMR. Out of the entire group of 8, only my friend and I were the only ones to have played a field with more than 30-40 people playing. This is in an area where there are about 7 major fields and another dozen or so smaller fields within a 3-hour drive time. Pretty much all were amazed at the fact more than 600 people where playing at a time. One of the kids had never been on a legit field. Speedball, the castles of EMR and the town amazed him. He never knew anything like that existed. I had bumped into the kid a few weeks later and he was still thanking me for taking him there to play.

Now I m going to break one of my own rules here, Political discussion. My issue about the holocaust is that fact that's its only about the Jews. What history forgets is the fact another 5.5 million that were not Jews and died. (We had a pretty decent Jewish survivor speaker in our area about two years ago that actually addressed the issue.) The Nazis during World War 2 murdered my great aunt’s family. My aunt is not even Jewish! My Lithuanian roots were most likely "exterminated" during the same period. As the one fellow mentioned on this topic that 25000 Dutch were killed. I m shocked someone even mentioned that! There are several people who know me personally. They we will attest the fact even though I have the looks of a member of the perfect race according to a 5-foot tall short man I would still be going to the ovens.

The entire 20th century has been the bloodiest century in recorded history. Two world wars have taken nearly 80 million lives. A number of minor wars have taken close to another 20 million. Now were firmly in the 21-th century, war lingers on the horizon again. If man truly learned from his mistakes, we would not have any more war. There would be no genocide. People could live together. However, people cannot live together. Look at Yugoslavia, a land that had genocide in its country for over a 1000 years. The whole Palestinian and Jewish problem continues. Checyzna (sp? I think I'm correct) continues. How bout the Japanese genocide on the people of china during the 30s? Remember folks, we traded the information learned there for our bio and chemical weapons program and those who committed acts barely had any punishment. The peoples of Tibet continue to be persecuted for their religious beliefs. One of the largest mass murders of the 20th century, the purges of Stalin left an estimated 30 million people dead. It is understood why man writes about a utopian place.

Now I got the soapbox speech out of the way :), I should really get back to my whole point of this thing.

Ok I really don't see or understand why we would have to explain the fact that someone who plays a German or dresses like one for a D-Day game. So what he's getting into it. Technically, Hitler was involved with D-Day and his blunders were capitalized on. Maybe if the scenario was based on a camp or something in sense, yeah then it would worth getting emotional about it. Yeah there is something cheesy about using the name of some horrible day in history to market it no matter what it is. What we should really understand is the fact we walk home after a day of "war games". We don't die when we get gogged. We don't lose a limb when a squad buster pops right next to your bunker. We are not sawed into two when the guy with the super fast gun stitches us across the stomach.

When I reffed, there was an older Vietnam vet playing his first time in a private group, he started freaking out during the middle of the day. One of his friends got an edge on him. We stopped the game took him to the sidelines. Let him cool down. He got a grip after a few moments. He played the rest of the day fine after myself and the other ref explained to him that it was just a game. My other ref was a vet himself and they both talk for a while as I reffed the next game.

Tyger, not everyone thinks of the political ideologies behind a game. All you are doing is creating nonsense regarding this matter.

Later,
SHAG
 

Tyger

Old School, New Tricks
Originally posted by SHAG

Tyger, not everyone thinks of the political ideologies behind a game. All you are doing is creating nonsense regarding this matter.
I don't think so, and I shall tell you why.

Imagine for a moment that a news service goes to a scenario game based on WW2. They find some guy dressed in an SS uniform, or even better qa group of guys dressed in SS uniforms. Now imagine they go up to these guys, and just as a matter of question as "Having a good time killing Americans?"

If those guys say "yes", you know damn good and well they've got a sound bite for the evening news. Now imagine if they bribe these guys with some sodas or beers if they'll "Seig Heil" in unison on camera.

Now imagine that is how all paintball players are represented in the national media, becasue a reporter smells blood and a story of their career. Just for a moment, imagine the fallout. Imagine pro-nazi groups rallying to paintball events thinking they have kindred spirits there. Imagine "Mothers Against Paintball" rallying to ban such a 'violent war game' that breeds anti-social behavior. And imagine all teh hard work from everyone fighting for acceptance being flushed down the toilet becasue all of America is plastered with a couple of guys who did something they thought was a goof.

Before you say that I'm going off my rocker, how far off am I? The "Nightline" footage I just posted up is from '85, but it shows pretty vividly what the American media is capable of.

When you create an environment where players feel the need to emulate a look, or even look like you're glorifying something like the Nazi's, you will have a poliical debate. You may not think of the political ideologies of a particular 'side' in a game, but that doesn't mean that nobody does. Especially someone on the 'outside' of the game who doesn't care about your 'game'.

-Tyger
 

FUna

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Nov 20, 2002
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Originally posted by JoseDominguez
???????? pointless argument mate, what you do in your own home is up to you, war themed paintball games are very public and it's the image of paintball I'm worried about.

They aren't going to say , he plays halo, ban paintball are they. See me in an SS uniform and it'd be different.
HALO, RPGs, War-Glorifying games are no different. They are not an "in the privacy of your home" issue because they are sold publically in your local shopping mall.

[
As for:
In Sevierville, TN, USA there is a militia group that uses paintball to practice for WW3 or the overthrow of the US government (I'm not kidding, they've been thrown off two paintball fields there).

Which side of the argument are you on?
Please tell me you're not from Great Britain because your comprehension of the English language is appalling.

But since I need to explain it to you; I was providing an example to backup my claim that people will always ALWAY ALWAYS use paintball to "play war" and there is NOTHING we can do to stop it.

As for the other idiotic comments of this thread about how photos could kill the sport of paintball in (insert country name here) just bear in mind that in the 1980's and early 90's paintball was nothing BUT a sport played by wanna-be Rambos, Arnold Schwarzeneggers, and Charles Bronson's. Anyone remember the movie "All's Fair" with Lou Ferrigno and how it portrayed paintball? If you read APG in 88/89 you should.

Point is...if you think one photo or even a series of photos will kill paintball in (insert name of your choice of country here) then either 1) paintball is on its way out in (insert name of your choice of country here) and you should take up Cricket or 2) your wrong.

The history of paintball has shown that even a military image can't kill it because that's where paintball's roots are! We survived it then and will continue to do so. You latecomers to the sport have not lived thru nor are you learning from the history of this sport and are nothing more than doomsayers standing on a streetcorner with placards screaming about repentance and the end of the world while misquoting the King James Bible.

No matter what our opinions...the military side of paintball in the form of scenario games isn't going away so we must learn to live with and adapt to it and make it a part of our overall strategy for success as a sport/game (however you see it).

As for which side I'm on? I'm on the side of allowing people the freedom to choose how they want to play paintball. Personally, I love speed/hyper/airball and loathe playing woods, but the occasional 24 hour scenario game is good fun too. I do find historically based scenarios such as D-Day (the same way I find the "Taliban Village field at SCVillage in California) to be incredibly tasteless and have no part in paintball.

But who are we to tell others how to run their business? If we, as a whole group of paintball players, are supporting these events and fields, then that is what we, as a whole, are asking for. It seems to me that if/when people stop wanting to play those type games, they will stop supporting them. In the meantime, kicking, bitching, whining and screaming about it is only an excerise in futility. If you'd like I can fedex you a nicely carved walking stick made by the fine craftsmen of rural Appalachia to beat your dead horse with too.