Chronicles of War

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

Wow. I'd never imagined WW2 had a "shelf life". Personally I don't subscribe to mass slaughter being any less unpleasant no matter how far back it occurred (including the Crusades - one of the reasons we have a militant Islamic element today). Kinda why Britain takes a back seat these days, as to be an Empire you essentially have to be rather unpleasant to a lot of people, still those who don't learn from history etc.

Paintball - a fun game where people tag eachother with paint before going home.

War -'nuff said. Or maybe not, as has been seen some postings, those not directly involved seem to forget they owe their current liberty and priveliges to those who literally went through hell on their behalf and many of whom didn't come back.

Once you start merging the above two, is it any wonder people start getting "sensitive" about it? Tyger isn't bringing political ideologies into the game, they're all part and parcel of the "war" aspect once you start labelling events as corollaries with actual battles.

Pain, suffering, loss, destruction, homelessness, atrocities - these any part of a paintball game?? Maybe scenario organisers can pick and choose what bits of a "battle" they include in their game, but the comabatants and civillians who had the real thing can't - who could blame them if they took offense at hearing about a paintball version of some WW2 atrocity and raising hell in the papers about it?

A little more thought and sensitivity may seem like being overly Politically Correct to some, but to me it's just one of the very minor ways I can show some respect in my limited capacity, and safeguard the game I love.

 

[FUna]

Originally posted by Tyger
I don't think so, and I shall tell you why.

Imagine for a moment that a news service goes to a scenario game based on WW2. They find some guy dressed in an SS uniform, or even better qa group of guys dressed in SS uniforms. Now imagine they go up to these guys, and just as a matter of question as "Having a good time killing Americans?"

Tyger, remember the 20/20 issue and who I blamed for that back a few years ago? I blamed the field that allowed the camera crew (I know...20/20 claimed they'd get hidden-camera footage -- but at that time I'd have included a new rule on the field no cameras or photography on premesis without express written permission from field management and then instituted a system where anyone wishing to take pics had to sign a form stating they were private citizens and would not be publishing footage/photos without permission from the field -- 20/20 would have been liable for a multi-million dollar lawsuit if they aired hidden-camera footage then. Paintball as an industry is still pretty stupid when it comes to dealing with the press and legal issues.)

I just want to add to some of your points.

I personally put a lot of blame for the SS uniforms and Nazi role-play on the scenario game operators, promoters and field owners involved.

I REALLY think we should urge them the exclude that type of thing. If people really must have a D-Day or Landing At Normandy, or Tet Offensive-based scenario game, then certain behaviors and actions on the part of participants REALLY need to be frowned upon and discouraged.

I think its quite irresponsible of field owners, promoters and scenario operators to not discourage activity such as saluting hitler, and getting too far into the "evil personnas" of their characters in historically-based scenario games (I put "evil-personnas" in quotes because depending on your side of history...either side could be "evil").

I also think that with the collective intelligence and imagination we have in this industry, we shouldn't need to base scenarios on historical events. The big problem is that you aren't playing history to its true conclusion. In a D-Day scenario, Germany could win. What then? You have just glorified a regime that history has shown to be one of the greatest evils of the past 1000 years tho arguably the slaughter of Jewish people and the conquest of Europe in the 30's/40's is nothing compared to the horrors the European and Middle-Eastern cultures have done to themselves and each other for centuries -- not that I'm supporting the Nazi genocide -- just a point about how we are too oversensitive to it because its so recent. I mean really, how is it people who did not live thru WW2 (and in many cases neither did their parents) get so worked up about an issue? I know the answer but its a psychological discussion best left for another post.

In the US we celebrate the victory and honor those who died in the American Civil war and the Revolutionary war with recreations of battles. In Europe there are similar recreations of medieval battles. The difference with paintball is, we are rewriting history, not recreating it, and that's where paintball is being irresponsible. Historically based scenarios aren't celebrating or honoring anyone if the "wrong side" wins.

I'd like to see a gradual migration away from these types of games, but unfortunately most fields and organizers still have players "by the balls" so to speak and don't have any choice. If they want to attend a scenario game and the only one played in the area is a historical one based on WW2...then that is the one they are going to attend regardless of how tasteless it is.

Until paintball gets more "mainstream" (still not enough), fields get more diverse and locations have more or a selection of fields, we aren't going to see this change.

All we can do now is hope local groups put pressure on field owners to disallow players from acting like idiots during events.

 

[duffistuta]

Holds breath, takes plunge...

>>>I'd like to see a gradual migration away from these types of games, but unfortunately most fields and organizers still have players "by the balls" so to speak and don't have any choice.

Could one not argue that it's the other way round - player demand for these kinds of scenarios drives field owners to run 'em?

 

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

This is what Tyger (and Baca) are saying, and they are certainly better informed than I, but I agree with the quotation - this is very much an industry where the products are layed before us and we adopt them or not - in the case of a paintball site if the only one for miles and miles around has as its central feature "the annihilation of Stalingrad" or "rape of Berlin" (ok, extreme examples - but you see where I'm headed), that's pretty much what you're stuck with if you want to play or not.

My assertion is the vast majority who tacitly condone this by supporting such a site with their patronage, do so because they are still under a misapprehension about what paintball is, perhaps too young and silly to see it as anything but a wargame (and also perhaps likely to do silly things like dress up as Germans), or not thinking that supporting this type of scenario may offend others. If the scenario were changed to something historically neutral (blue team/aardvarkians, whatever), I don't think this would deter them from going, as it's the paintball, not the historical military aspect they are digging. However, as long as people are turning up as always, nothing is going to tell the site they need to change their themes. Therefore it would need the site, not the players to make the change IMO.

 

[Buddha 3]

Good to see that this discussion is starting to take on a more civilised tone.
The way I see it, if you stage 'historical' games like d-day, and think it's okay, then it would be equally okay to stage a game based on what happened in Auschwitz-Birkenau. The fact that some people enjoy playing them doesn'y make it 'right'. The fact that people enjoy dressing up as SS Schütze doesn't mean it's a harmless thing to do, it just means these people are weird.
If the only argument that people have for these games is the fact that some people enjoy them, than along that line of reasoning it would also be okay to open up a kiddy porn store. And I doubt anyone would agree with that.

Scenario games based on fantasy and fictional themes, fine. Make a game out of an actual event of the magnitude of things like the second world war, and you are 'joking away' the suffering of millions.
I wonder how some people in the States would react if someone made a videogame in which you could fly a Zero and bomb the crap out of Pearl Harbour hospitals...

 

[duffistuta]

Or 'Hijack this plane and aim for the big towers over there'...

 

[JoseDominguez]

I was waiting for that one, think they're getting the point yet?

as for
Originally posted by JoseDominguez
???????? pointless argument mate, what you do in your own home is up to you, war themed paintball games are very public and it's the image of paintball I'm worried about.

They aren't going to say , he plays halo, ban paintball are they. See me in an SS uniform and it'd be different.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"HALO, RPGs, War-Glorifying games are no different. They are not an "in the privacy of your home" issue because they are sold publically in your local shopping mall. (funa)"

Well, yes they are different as they aren't going to get paintball seen in a bad light. Plus, the comments about the next posters spelling were unwarranted, what gives you the right to speak to someone like that? And then after calling out points idiotic, you agree that vietnam themes have no place in paintball, what was your point again?

 

[DizWolf]

ermmm noo

Originally posted by Jones the Paint Magnet
This is what Tyger (and Baca) are saying, and they are certainly better informed than I, but I agree with the quotation - this is very much an industry where the products are layed before us and we adopt them or not - in the case of a paintball site if the only one for miles and miles around has as its central feature "the annihilation of Stalingrad" or "rape of Berlin" (ok, extreme examples - but you see where I'm headed), that's pretty much what you're stuck with if you want to play or not.

Considering myself, my various teams, and friends each drive an average of 100-150 hours a year going to events, I'd say this is not true.

Maybe you need to be from the states to understand this, but there are feilds running big games EVERYWHERE. I cant get to all the ones I'd like to for sheer lack of time. There are literally hundreds of games to choose from. If people didnt like a certain type of game, it'd die. Consaidering the vast number of players who travel in excess of 5-12 hours to get to an event, I Dont think your arguement holds any water. I didnt Like the michigian monster game. I drove 10 hours and went over two international border checks to go there. I didnt go back to it. I love paintball long islands big game. I drive 12 hours each year to get there....and 12 back after the event. I'm not atypical of a biggame player.

 

[Tyger]

Originally posted by duffistuta
Or 'Hijack this plane and aim for the big towers over there'...

Which was a point I tried to make over on Warpig's message board, but I think it got lost on them.

Someone told me that to a Euro person, 200 miles is a long way, and to an American, 200 years is a long time. So to us here, WW2 is a long time ago. Well, to most people.

I'll hit on the US Scenario game slater, I need to go do stuff right now tho.

-Tyger

 

[FUna]

Holds breath, takes plunge...

Originally posted by duffistuta
>>>I'd like to see a gradual migration away from these types of games, but unfortunately most fields and organizers still have players "by the balls" so to speak and don't have any choice.

Could one not argue that it's the other way round - player demand for these kinds of scenarios drives field owners to run 'em?

Oh you mean like when I wrote:

"It seems to me that if/when people stop wanting to play those type games, they will stop supporting them."