Chronicles of War

[Wolf]

Us vs. them?

What many of you have to consider is that for scenario players, the story line is just a vehicle, as is, actually, the paintball aspect. Your arguments against are not valid if you look at the bigger picture. Many players don't even care about the story line, they are there to run missions or shoot at others. Oh, and to socialize and have fun, and maybe that before playing paintball.

In scenario games I have been a convicted murderer (game held in a real prison), a Templer knight, a loyal English knight, a US Special Forces soldier, a Japanese marine (WW II), a Bosnian soldier, an FBI HRT member, a miner on a moon of Saturn, and assorted other roles. Actually, my team tries to volunteer for the "bad" guys in scenarios for the simple fact that someone has to and they should have some organized power over there.

This May I will be a Muslim SS member at the end of WW II. Yes, they really existed and my team will be them for the MXS "Spear of Destiny" game based on the Wolfenstein computer game. Researching the game actually helped me learn some things I didn't know. It always does. No, we will not have Nazi crap on, but we will run missions and play and have fun. That is what scenario paintball is about.

As far as not doing things as "dishonoring" those that really fought. That is bunk (and I had relatives that served, too). That is like saying don't play "Cops and Robbers" or "Cowboys and Indians" (or hell, "Celts and Romans" if you want) because it was really an ugly situation in history. Sorry, this is escapism and a weekend of fun. No one says don't play the board game Risk because the Napoleanic Wars were really a nasty bit of work. Rubbish!

I play tourney 'ball, too, and will play both scenarios/big games and 3 and 5-mans in 2003. Both styles of paintball MUST co-exist (the rec end will ALWAYS be more popular, and thus more of the industry). Besides, what will all you pro-this and stadium-airball-that do when you have to retire from the one (or two) main circuits? If you choose to leave Paintball you never really liked it. Odds are you will gather with the rest of us for more fun and socializing at scenario/big games.

www.twilightzonepaintball.com

 

[JoseDominguez]

So that argument is bunk is it? Take that up with my mate Pete who served in Bosnia, I think he'd change your mind. You can't speak for every veteran mate, and trying to is offensive.
Is it really a valid "fun" day out to pretend to be an SS officer?
If that's your thing then you are welcome to it. Just weird if you ask me. Can't you use a made up scenario? or isn't your imagination up to it?
How would you feel if you showed up at a big game based on vietnam and a team of vietnamese players showed up? be a bit different wouldn't it?

 

[Tyger]

Us vs. them?

Originally posted by Wolf

As far as not doing things as "dishonoring" those that really fought. That is bunk (and I had relatives that served, too). That is like saying don't play "Cops and Robbers" or "Cowboys and Indians" (or hell, "Celts and Romans" if you want) because it was really an ugly situation in history. Sorry, this is escapism and a weekend of fun. No one says don't play the board game Risk because the Napoleanic Wars were really a nasty bit of work. Rubbish!

I disagree, because even when you play "Risk" You're not pretending to be anything more than a "General". You're not playing, say, Napoleon himself.

Escapisim has it's place in paintball, as I've said before, but the line is drawn when you mock the dead. You may not, but I find it disrespectful to profit form the death of people by trivialising what they did in service to their country. I'm just thankful that a veterans group hasn't gotten all pissed off about it and raised a national stink.

And before you say it, I know there are Vietnam vets who play paintball. I know that there are "Scenario" games that recreated war ("Sargent Shano" ran one for the bennefit of high school kids who thought Vietnam wasn't that big a deal. After a weekend of total immersion they changed their mind.) I also know that several people do not, nor ever will, share my views. That's fine. Won't be the first time.

What would make it so difficult to take the same scenario and change names to fictional countries or events? Oh, right, 'historical reenactment'. My kid loves goign to Rendesvous in the midwest here, a "Fur Trade era" reenactment. And he goes full out. He helps with battle reenactmets too, and they're historically accurate. In those cases, they're meant to be a teaching tool for the public about 1800's fighting and techniques. Until paintball becomes a simiar teaching tool, I don't buy it.

But that's just my opinion.

-Tyger

(Happy Holidays folks)

 

[JoseDominguez]

Yup, if your gonna try to recreate history, then a paintball marker is the last thing you want to use. Totally unrealistic.....so why bother using them? stick with fun scenarios and made up stuff, you can't make a historical re-enactment with paintball technology. Even a short bow has a greater effective range than a marker, and no fire-arm works the same way in ROF, magazine capacity etc.., that's without going into the velocity thing (you don't get to dodge a rifle 'cos you hear it).
So lets keep re-enactment and wargames separate from rec and tourney. After all, you don't assume an american footballer is into rugby just because he's got the same weird shaped balls.

 

[Tyger]

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
So lets keep re-enactment and wargames separate from rec and tourney. After all, you don't assume an american footballer is into rugby just because he's got the same weird shaped balls.

[troublemaker mode]
I'm sorry, Jose, I'm afraid we can't do that.
[/troublemaker mode]

Ok, joke aside, it's nearly impossible to seperate paintball at this point in it's life into factions like that. Heck, the public doens't know that tournaments happen on grass pitches on inflatable bunkers, they know paintall is played in the woods. WE've been over this on this board a lot.

I'm going to assume you're in the UK, so I need to explain about re-enactment in the US. We have ren faires that are more hippy than harlot. We have groups that live, eat, breahte, and exist the "old South", recreating civil war battles. If there's a centrury gone by, we have people wanting to live it. IS there any other reason "Hair" is still on broadway? It's been said that to a Brit, 200 miles is a far way away, and to an American, 200 years is a long time ago.

We also have people who don't realise what they're reenacting or idolising. There's a group of kids (15-21) in Wisconsin that model thier paintball team and motif on the SS. Hitler's SS. I know that Alien was none too happy with them at the Sam's game, and I'm not terribly proud to share a state with them. The US was relatively insulated from the horrors of what happened 50 years ago. Walking around London a few years ago I could still see the scars left from Nazi bombs.

Now to bring it back to topic, historical re-enactment and a scenario based on a historical event are TWO TOTALLY diffrent things, and there needs to be a distinction drawn. If a scenario producer said that his/her game was a historical reenactment, nobody would play for the losing side. No, it's usually "Based on" something, meaning that the actions of the players are, in theory, changing the outcome of the event.

AND, paintball is still a lump sum game, WE're all in this thing together, until further notice. Someday, paintball may be willing to admit the diffrences, but until then, we're all in this together folks. What one flavor of the game does affects the other. Deal.

-Tyger

 

[JoseDominguez]

Er? well yes, that's the whole point, we need to differentiate and educate. As for a team based on the SS..... ban them outright. And before anyone starts on freedom of speech, just think before you type. You can't argue that point as I'm just expressing mine.

We need to show the public the difference, tourney is a fast paced team sport, rec is a great social and fun day out, military re-enactment is just vaguely sad. Until the public see the difference we are going to stay on the fringe.

Look at it this way, remember ten years ago when consoles and computer games were only for teenage boys? we all loved them, but a twenty year old man wouldn't admit to having one. But now, thanks to clever marketing and a forced change in perception, almost everyone has a playstation next to their VCR. We need that same acceptance for paintball, let everyone see that it's something we can all do.

 

[Marchborne]

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
Er? well yes, that's the whole point, we need to differentiate and educate. As for a team based on the SS..... ban them outright. And before anyone starts on freedom of speech, just think before you type. You can't argue that point as I'm just expressing mine.

Well, actually, you CAN argue freedom of speech as a counterpoint. What you're suggesting is banning the team, who has a right to freedom of speech. I just can't argue that you need to shut up, as you have the right to free speech as well. But with that said, a team which actually models itself after the SS has no place in paintball, IMHO.

Tyger, let me see if I have this right: you're saying no more historical scenario games at all? Now, I'm not disagreeing with you in that some scenarios are potentially more offensive than others, and restraint should be exercised, but if we shouldn't hold scenarios because they might offend, then there isn't a single era of conflict which won't offend somebody.

So, as you suggest, we could change the names to protect the historically not so innocent, and fictionalize the games, but does that really solve things? It just suggests that players and the public can't differentiate between games and zealotry. (and yes, I know the difference between real re-enacting and spin-off scenarios, I did my undergrad at William and Mary, the practical birth-place of re-enactment, and my parents have about 80 acres outside of Gettysburg, the Mecca for Civil War re-enactors. No offense to other locations which hold events )

But, as you say, all aspects of paintball are associated together, so we should check out all the angles. What was the quote (I know I'm gonna get this wrong): "We must all stand together, or we shall surely all hang separately."

Take care, and my best to all for the new year!

 

[Tyger]

First post of the new year and I'm starting trouble.

Let's make a VERY DISTINCT SEPERATION between reenactors and scenario gamers.

a reenactor is intrested in recreating history. To that end, they costume to period if possible, use replica (if not the REAL THING) arms, they will even go into the real gear in order to create a 'living history'.

a scenario gamer is not intrested in the history as much as they're intrested in achieving mission objectives. The scenario is, for lack of a better term, windowdressing. Every scenario game I went to they could have easily replaced "Americans" and "Germans" with "Zenobians" and "Aardvarkians".

Historically based scenario games do nothing to accurately portray anything that 'really' happened. I point to a "D-Day" scenario that happened this year in which the "Americans" had to cross a clearing in order to get to the woods in order to get 'cover'. It replicated the beach invasion, sure, but after that, forget it. And even as a part of the beach storming, paintball guns don't replicate the effects of warfare, nor did any layer gain an appreciation for the true difficulty of storming the beaches at Normandy.

Reenactors intrest is to preserve a 'living history' of an era, an event, or the like. It's why Civil War people od wha thtey do, they want to keep history 'alive' by living the roles, and showing people what it was like without pulling punches. (Well, sometimes they do...)

I find that producers that run "Vietnam" scenario games aren't intrested in the history, as much as they'r einterested in turning a buck. And, IMHO, that is making money on the dead, trivialising what they gave in service to their country.

But, tha'ts just my opinion....

Happy new year to all, regardless!

-Tyger

 

[Buddha 3]

Tyger,

I agree with you.
Perhaps people would understand better if they have stood amongst the rows upon rows of white crosses on the bluffs overlooking what once was Omaha Beach. Ten thousand allied soldiers became casualties on June 6th 1944, 2400 of them never came home. The number of German casualties has never been established, but they range from 2500 to 5000. All that in a single day. Copying that for a laugh is bad taste in my book.

 

[JoseDominguez]

To settle this once and for all, how comfortable would you be playing a world war 2 scenario game if a german team showed up? you wouldn't would you. it's as simple as that, you'd curb your speech and basically have to forget the scenario aspect, otherwise it would be offensive. You would still have a good day and enjoy the game, so why bother with the ww2 theme in the first place? just a lack of imagination relying on existing stuff. Stick with Aardvarkians and zenobians, I like that, nice work Tyger.