Bit of a nuts Idea like but hey

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Mak D
The one thing I think I can get you to relate to Boxing and I get shot down like an Iraqi in a paper bag over down town Bagdad.

So you said

''I would much rather be last placed Pro than first placed Am, one arena I can evolve in if I put the work in''

But thats the problem Robbo, you can either ''evolve'' as you put it, and finish in the back end for a few years and maby one day lift a trophy or play at the top Am level and get results and enjoy playing, cause you havn't just flew all the way around the world to come last mate.

One more thing, I don't think Kelly's or teams like them are making a bad decision to stay Am, unfortunelty history has shown us that UK teams going pro are not going to end up where they want to be. I'm not trying to get beef here I'm just saying teams have choices they can go pro and finish as our teams are now 10th, 5th wherever or play Am and have a REALISTIC chance of winning.
Which beleive it or not Pete is the reason why most young guys play paintball because they want to win mate, 2nd place aint even good enough.

Playing to win is an addiction once you win once thats it your playing to win from now on and like I said 2nd place isn't even good enough.
If you have drive and ambition ur playing to win, anyone who tells me there a top balla but are happy to make up the numbers from 2nd place to last needs to take a walk and have a word with themself.

I'm not saying everyone should drop a division to make it easier to win, I'm saying if you can't realistcly win (as in you've no chance of ever beating Dynasty best of 3) then whats the point in playing pro, to help along with the prize money funds by paying entry so those boys can walk off and take it and carry on living their dream??


Ye get me???????????

Mak D

Well I get ya.............but with ure thinking, there's 16 pro teams in the NPPL who might as well pack up playing pro and go play Semi pro and when 14 of them don't win that either (coz 16 pros have just now dowgraded) then those 14 will go play Div 1....and so on.
I'm afraid Mak, it's a ludicrous suggestion if you take it to its natural conclusion.

 

[Baca Loco]

While I agree completely with Pete regarding competition I also understand where Mak is coming from and felt the inclination to jump in here because I think Mak's view will prove to be a telling one in the near future of Pro pball. In fact, I am writing about this phenomenon right now for a future 'View from the Deadbox.'

What happens psychologically to Pro players who have worked hard for years in order to reach the Pro ranks only to lose, lose, lose? This situation is of course repeated in innumerable other sports but is still an interesting question I think and one that captains and coaches are going to have to combat more directly in this developing era of closed leagues and competition at the pinnacle of Paintball.
The reality is there are players who can't handle it just like there are players who can't handle the pressures of top competition and it's an element of the game that gets little attention.

ps--Mak, what's happened to you? Lately, whether I agree with you or not, you've actually been sensible which is a dramatic shift from the past.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
While I agree completely with Pete regarding competition I also understand where Mak is coming from and felt the inclination to jump in here because I think Mak's view will prove to be a telling one in the near future of Pro pball. In fact, I am writing about this phenomenon right now for a future 'View from the Deadbox.'

What happens psychologically to Pro players who have worked hard for years in order to reach the Pro ranks only to lose, lose, lose? This situation is of course repeated in innumerable other sports but is still an interesting question I think and one that captains and coaches are going to have to combat more directly in this developing era of closed leagues and competition at the pinnacle of Paintball.
The reality is there are players who can't handle it just like there are players who can't handle the pressures of top competition and it's an element of the game that gets little attention.

ps--Mak, what's happened to you? Lately, whether I agree with you or not, you've actually been sensible which is a dramatic shift from the past.

Baca, come on mate, you fully realize Mak wasn't asking this question for the same reasons you are now reinventing it.
It's a bit like equating a child asking his mum how we got here and Rene Descartes spurting 'Cogito ergo sum'.......

Mak's take on this is purely a reactionary one in that he 'says' he would rather end up first with the Ams than go unrewarded in the pros, this stance has its roots more in drama than in actuality for most people.

As for the question you now pose, you rightly qualify it by telling us all, many other sports have the same phenomenon in that most teams have to face up to the fact they ain't gonna win much but this isn't why we play, it's the goal we have yes, but not why.
We play pro to compete at the top.

Winning is the icing on the cake and the cake in this sense, is to be a pro paintballer, to be up there, to be recognized as a top exponent of our sport.
It's about respect, it's about recognition, winning is just a reward for being a pro and contesting but certainly not the only reward.
And as far as I am concerned, there is only one winner at tournaments and that's the pro team who wins because they are the best team there...end of !!!!
The rest is manufactured for various reasons.

 

[Baca Loco]

Sure, Pete, I realize Mak was at best in the same neighborhood but I'm just wondering if the inspiration for Mak's original post mightn't come from the same sort of frustration I expect we will see more of in the near future.
In the old days of mixed prelims as much as some of the Pros dismissed playing lesser teams it tended to substantiate their status as Pros--particularly for the teams that once the draw became Pro only and they usually didn't advance.
Now we have a situation where Pro only plays Pro and certain teams are mostly losing. While this does happen in other sports it's new to pball and pball has a predominantly young playership that in America anyway isn't very patient nor terribly interested in much but what's in it for them. Meanwhile the tangible rewards of playing Pro mostly don't exist yet in pball and after all the work to reach that level what they get in return is failure in a very real, immediate sense.

That said, I don't disagree with you at all, but simply find the idea an interesting one.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Sure, Pete, I realize Mak was at best in the same neighborhood but I'm just wondering if the inspiration for Mak's original post mightn't come from the same sort of frustration I expect we will see more of in the near future.
In the old days of mixed prelims as much as some of the Pros dismissed playing lesser teams it tended to substantiate their status as Pros--particularly for the teams that once the draw became Pro only and they usually didn't advance.
Now we have a situation where Pro only plays Pro and certain teams are mostly losing. While this does happen in other sports it's new to pball and pball has a predominantly young playership that in America anyway isn't very patient nor terribly interested in much but what's in it for them. Meanwhile the tangible rewards of playing Pro mostly don't exist yet in pball and after all the work to reach that level what they get in return is failure in a very real, immediate sense.

That said, I don't disagree with you at all, but simply find the idea an interesting one.

I think frustration is apparent in most pro teams (even more so as a coach I think) in that the mere fact we play as pros pretty much tags us as truly competitive and therefore being unable to win is hugely frustrating.

But......I think life as well as sport teaches us to be philosophical about such things and we learn to live with it and take heart and inspiration from the other positive aspects of being pro.

I have told my guys on many occasions that the proudest moment of my career wasn't picking up any World Cup medals I won or anything like that, it was when I watched them being high fived by the Dynasty guys as they were on the podium to pick up their 4th place at Campaign 2003.

We didn't win the tourney, we got 4th but it was the respect we got as pros, as fellow sportsmen and watching my guys get that respect from Dyansty and the crowd watching was the dog's bollocks for me.

Sure pros get frustrated but as sportsmen we all have aspirations and hope, and that hope for some players may be manifest in thinking they wil be picked up by a super pro team or maybe their team will improve but I do take your point about it being a new environment for pros with fewer validations.

How they handle it, as you suggest, will be interesting

As for the original suggestoins made by Mak and Pebbles, my assertion still stands that it has no credibility outside of being a throwaway line.

 

[skullicious]

Does anyone agree that the mindset of wanting to play lower divisions to give yourself a greater chance of winning is compounded by the fact that most teams have to sacrifice something in order for them to go out and lose,lose,lose?

Sacrifices being time,money,jobs, etc...

Whereas your average pro footballer is a paid member of a team and this is his career/life he is not really sacrificing much.

I know of my experience when I was playing every week (sometimes twice) with an average job I sacrificed my social life pretty much to train and enter tournaments (local and millieniums).

I think I've gone off the point somewhere but hopefuly someone understands where I am coming from.

 

[Baca Loco]

Yep, Skully, that feeling is what I'm talking about and I get it completely. While I believe 100% in the things Robbo mentioned it can seem like pretty thin fare sometimes compared to the feast of success.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Yep, Skully, that feeling is what I'm talking about and I get it completely. While I believe 100% in the things Robbo mentioned it can seem like pretty thin fare sometimes compared to the feast of success.

.....knockin' over bums.............sandbagging..........

 

[DarWood]

As much as it would prove (which is probably nothing) it might be interesting to see what other people believe and think?

Maybe put a Poll up to find out:

a) Play pro and get ur arse kicked, to the extent of learning and being treated with respect as a professional individual, and team

or,

b) Play AM and place within the top 4. Kick arse rather than get it, and enjoy it, BUT! be branded by some as 'Sandbaggers!!

Darren

 

[Didz]

i agree with robbo here. i think if you are serious about any sport you play, you want to play at the highest level you possibly can. if a team steps up to pro, they do it to test themselves against some of the best.
dont know about other people but i would rather finish say 10th
in pro than win div 1 at a millenium.