Big Purple Dinosaur tortures Iraqi POW's

[crom-dubh]

OK so whats your point about Wahabis? They have only been allowed to stay in power because of US support. Also the US' involvement in Isreal has caused so much hatred towards Americans it scary. I really think that the arabic way of thinking is so alien to us westerners we cannot fully understand what problems the US and the UK have caused in the middle east. I was in a taxi a few months ago and the driver was a Muslim. we got talking about the war in Afghanistan and the problems in Iraq. The driver wasnt too bothered about that but I have never heard as much passionate hatred towards the Americans because of their involvement in Isreal and its military presense in Saudi

We should pull out of the whole region and let them get on with it.

 

[headrock6]

Originally posted by crom-dubh
OK so whats your point about Wahabis? They have only been allowed to stay in power because of US support.

No we dont support Wahhabism at all..What we have is a nasty pact with the Saudi government regarding oil..But you commented on terror attacks recently..It involved Moroccans with probably no ties with Al Qaeda..The other in Saudi Arabia killed more Muslims than foriegners enraging the Saudi populace and making the Saudi governmnet look real hard at thier relationship with radical clerics keeping them in favor with the people..

Originally posted by crom-dubh
Also the US' involvement in Isreal has caused so much hatred towards Americans it scary. I really think that the arabic way of thinking is so alien to us westerners we cannot fully understand what problems the US and the UK have caused in the middle east.

And where is the hatred bred from??Saddam kills more Muslims than any other in the world??And yet many supported him as a champion throughout the Middle East..If clerics decided to bash Saddam we might not have even needed war..And the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as the cause for all the hatred is an excuse..Im not condoning anything regarding Israel but its an excuse..The Arab world hasnt been enraged like this for the last 40 years so why now..Its easy to see,but you do have to look...

Originally posted by crom-dubh
We should pull out of the whole region and let them get on with it.

Wishful thinking

 

[crom-dubh]

Thats the point I was making. Their mind set is different to ours. They really have long memories when it comes to hatred of the Jews. You ask why is it only now that these problems with fundamentilist terror groups has emerged. You will find that the problems have always been there but the means to react have not.
Prior to 90's the third world was split up between the US and the USSR each of them waging little wars against each other indirectly. Take Afghanistan for example. Muslims all round the world united in the cause to fight the common enemy. When the war ended many Muslims felt betrayed by the US and OBL came into being. Soon he was public enemy #1 ( not the best thing to do, declaring war on the US). Americas cruise missle attack on a supposed friendly country of Sudan didnt help matters much.
Add to this Americas support of a corrupt government in Saudi during and after Gulf war 1 and the on going issues in Isreal it is easy to see how many muslims can easily be led into thinking that their religion and way of life is being persecuted ( do they see themsevles as the new enemy since the collapse of the Soviet Union?)
The problem isnt one of muslims killing muslims ( they have been doing that for the last 1500 years or so) its christians or jews killing muslims. This way of thinking has been around since the crusades and I dont think that will ever change.

 

[headrock6]

Originally posted by crom-dubh
Thats the point I was making.

Gotcha..Point well taken

Originally posted by crom-dubh
This way of thinking has been around since the crusades and I dont think that will ever change.

As long as brutal dictatorships,lack of basic rights,poverty,no education,and a myriad of other problems engulf the Middle East,your probably right..But your approaching a topic that im regretfully gonna bow out of now..Too touchy for a paintball forum ...


See Jose D..Reasonable debate with no insults and very little sarcasm besides Saddam hiding WMD's here but that made me laugh so all good..You should learn to be funny like Dubh here..

 

[Mark790.06]

Originally posted by crom-dubh
They [Wahabis] have only been allowed to stay in power because of US support.

By support do you mean buying their oil? Because in that case we’re all guilty, everybody, not just the US.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
we cannot fully understand what problems the US and the UK have caused in the middle east.

And just what problems would those be? Not expecting to “understand” them mind you, but just was curious.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
They really have long memories when it comes to hatred of the Jews.

Long memory my ass! They’re fed a steady diet of anti-Semitics in nearly every school, news paper, and mosque.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
When the [Afghan] war ended many Muslims felt betrayed by the US and OBL came into being.

WRONG!!!! Giving them the means to shoot down Soviet helicopters and helping to train the mujhadeen is betrayal? OBL came into being, as you put it, when he saw the effect western culture was having on his precious 7th century world. The last straw was Operation Desert Shield, when the infidels were allowed to pollute his country by the house of Saud.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
it is easy to see how many muslims can easily be led into thinking that their religion and way of life is being persecuted

Persecuted? Persecuted by who, and HOW?!?!?! They’re the largest, and fastest growing religon on the planet, they own a combined 80% of the worlds’ petroleum, and they feel persecuted? Too bad we all can’t be persecuted so well.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Originally posted by headrock6
Gotcha..Point well taken






As long as brutal dictatorships,lack of basic rights,poverty,no education,and a myriad of other problems engulf the Middle East,your probably right..But your approaching a topic that im regretfully gonna bow out of now..Too touchy for a paintball forum ...


See Jose D..Reasonable debate with no insults and very little sarcasm besides Saddam hiding WMD's here but that made me laugh so all good..You should learn to be funny like Dubh here..

??????????? pointless, once again trying to drag me into an argument.....why? also, I use sarcasm to respond to your insults. I don't start the mud slinging. Feel free to use as many quotes as you like.
I haven't posted on this thread for about a page and a half...... so why drag my name into it ?
You always come of worse..... why bother? the last post i had to make was refuting your post about me "editing after the fact" (I corrected a typo). And the one before that was responding to a personal insult............ oh and next time you want to apologise and say it's all in fun.........do it on here, not in a pm.

 

[headrock6]

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
??????????? pointless, once again trying to drag me into an argument.....why? also, I use sarcasm to respond to your insults. I don't start the mud slinging. Feel free to use as many quotes as you like.
I haven't posted on this thread for about a page and a half...... so why drag my name into it ?
You always come of worse..... why bother? the last post i had to make was refuting your post about me "editing after the fact" (I corrected a typo). And the one before that was responding to a personal insult............ oh and next time you want to apologise and say it's all in fun.........do it on here, not in a pm.

Can u say hook,line,and sinker..This thread was dead and buried..Sorry it had to be re hashed again..I was trying to show reasonable debate can be achieved without it always ending in an incessant pissing match..And im sorry you take everything to be so offensive when it really isnt meant to be..Maybe I need to use the smileys more..

 

[JoseDominguez]

Seriously dude, you lost all respect when you used that "can you say" line....

Like, whatever.


You obviously watch too much Jerry Springer......... it explains the huge cranium and holier than thou attitude though.

 

[crom-dubh]

OK Mark790.06 I will try to answer/respond to your post.

Over 5000 US troops in Saudi are used to ensure that the government stays in power. I also believe that the UK do their part too but are a bit more hush hush about it.

Problems that the US and UK have caused in the middle east.
Creating Isreal by forcing many palestinians out of their homes.
Supporting Isreals aggresive expansion even though they have ignored more UN sanctions than Iraq
Supplying Saddam with the knowledge and materials to build chemo and bio weapons.
Supporting Saddam right up to the point when he invades Kuwait.
Britain's invasion of Egypt because it didnt want to loose control of the Suez canal to nationalist Arabs.
The US invasion of Afghanistan

Why do you say "long my ass!" and then agree with what I say. Muslims at all levels are taught that the Jews are the common enemy. Not just in the poorer countries but all over the world.

The US was seen to betray the Afghans by doing what they usually do. When their goals are met they just walk away. All sorts of things were promised to the Afghans which never actually happened. Things like helping to rebuild the country, medical aid etc. The CIA encouraged/helped to make Afghanistan one of the biggest opium producers in the world. You really think those stingers were free? Drug money bought them. So for a long time Afghanistani farmers have been growing poppies instead of food.

I did not say that they were being prosecuted, I said that it is easy to see how they can be led into thinking they are.

 

[Mark790.06]

Originally posted by crom-dubh
Over 5000 US troops in Saudi are used to ensure that the government stays in power. I also believe that the UK do their part too but are a bit more hush hush about it.

First of all the 5000 troops is what was left after we moved everything to Kuwait and Qatar for Iraqi Freedom, because they wouldn't allow the liberation to originate from their sand (to say soil, doesn't work). Prior to that, the troops were there incase Saddam got stupid again, or at least more stupid than he finally was. These soldiers were in no way proping up the royal family, on the contrary, folks like bin Laden thought the opposite.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
Creating Isreal by forcing many palestinians out of their homes.

As opposed to the 400,000 Palestinians forced from their homes in Kuwait, the Chetnians massacured by the Russian army, the Syrians annexation of Beiruit. If we're going to be the only ones guilty of hypocracy, when will that standard apply to anyone else?

Originally posted by crom-dubh
Supporting Isreals aggresive expansion even though they have ignored more UN sanctions than Iraq

They occupy land they acquired after they were invaded by 5 Arab countries. How's that expansionism?

Originally posted by crom-dubh
Supplying Saddam with the knowledge and materials to build chemo and bio weapons.

As many are fond of saying today, What chem-bio? As with the dual use controversy; should we deny the sale of chemicals that could be used for both baby formula and botulin? We probably should've sold them nuclear reactor technology instead, doesn't seem to give France or Russia any ****.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
Supporting Saddam right up to the point when he invades Kuwait.

And just how does that piss off other muslims? If anyone had a right to be miffed at us it was the Kuwaitis and Iranians, yet Kuwait is among our closest friends in the region now, and the Iranian people have openly wished that what we did in Iraq would spill over the border into Iran.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
The US invasion of Afghanistan

In response to an attack on us. If someone chooses to take offense at our defense, that's their problem.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
Why do you say "long [memory] my ass!" and then agree with what I say. Muslims at all levels are taught that the Jews are the common enemy. Not just in the poorer countries but all over the world.

How can they forget anything when they're being spoon-fed it on a daily basis? It was the long memory part that I objected to.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
The US was seen to betray the Afghans by doing what they usually do. When their goals are met they just walk away.

Yet bin Laden was still able to convince his minions that we polluted Islam. If we stayed and "helped" them, we would've been accused of being occupiers, exploiters, oppressors, warmongers, and.....oops, we've been accused of that anyway. We can't win either way.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
All sorts of things were promised to the Afghans which never actually happened. Things like helping to rebuild the country, medical aid etc.

At the time of Enduring Freedom, the US was Afghanistans' largest humanitarian benefactor.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
The CIA encouraged/helped to make Afghanistan one of the biggest opium producers in the world.

They have pretty much been #1 or #2 in that field. Something can also be said for the heroine junkies of Europe for giving them that distinction.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
So for a long time Afghanistani farmers have been growing poppies instead of food.

Oh sure, it's all our fault! Why would an Afghan peasant grow opium that he can sell for thousands, when he can grow potatos that he can sell for a goat and 2 chickens? It sure isn't the fault of the Talliban for allowing the ilicit trade to continue in gross-contradiction to their religon.

Originally posted by crom-dubh
I did not say that they were being prosecuted, I said that it is easy to see how they can be led into thinking they are.

No you said persecuted, but I'll assume you meant to say that. It's only easy when you consider the amount of propaganda that the muslim world is served, http://www.memri.org/index.html but not when you add logic to the mix.