A must read - PA rule change for the 2005 season

[manike]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
I was really hoping it would be technically possible to get the last shot out no more than 1/4 of second after trigger release. One full second is a long time and not safe or fully under control IMO.

Getting the last shot out within 1/4 is absolutely possible. That means you are only having to pull every 1/4 second which is 4bps...

NO WAY should it be allowed to keep going for a whole second.

But having the last shot out within 1/4 is still going to mean more than one shot after you stop pulling or release the trigger for the last time. (most ramping will).

I haven't specifically measured it but the gun I have gives the impression of 2-3 shots when you let off.

It all depends on what level you need to maintain walking the trigger to keep the gun going.

 

[FAMINE]

Been discussing this with the team, and the general census is this isnt a good thing.

As covered above in the many posts,

1. If difficult to enforce a rule, is it correct to just erase it?

2. Wheres the skill? any monkey can shoot lanes with a ramping board.

3. Why cap the limit for ALL markers? Hell if i can shoot fast, wtf should i be pulled from a game?

4. Its gonna slow plays and games down, everyone digs in and shoots lanes, plays the numbers game for a while and then finishes up. Paintball can be dull to watch at the best of times, without every game being a paint fest.

5. Are you sure this is the right way to go with the home office, what if they decide to look to deep and decide they dont like what they see.

6. Safety, any fool can go buy a ramping board marker. Little jonny buys one and shoots the crap outa his mate. Now with a present marker, he sure as hell isnt gonna get 15bps, but with a ramper.....

7. UKPSF involved? Im a site/trade member and i dont recall any news of the UKPSF getting involved. Have the masses been asked if this is what they want, or is it as seems, the few decide what the masses want??

Just the teams and my 2ps worth.
No big debate, Just a little. Not everyone thinks this is a good idea and a NAY vote if we got one.

 

[Russell Smith]

Originally posted by FAMINE
Been discussing this with the team, and the general census is this isnt a good thing.

As covered above in the many posts,

1. If difficult to enforce a rule, is it correct to just erase it?

2. Wheres the skill? any monkey can shoot lanes with a ramping board.

3. Why cap the limit for ALL markers? Hell if i can shoot fast, wtf should i be pulled from a game?

4. Its gonna slow plays and games down, everyone digs in and shoots lanes, plays the numbers game for a while and then finishes up. Paintball can be dull to watch at the best of times, without every game being a paint fest.

5. Are you sure this is the right way to go with the home office, what if they decide to look to deep and decide they dont like what they see.

6. Safety, any fool can go buy a ramping board marker. Little jonny buys one and shoots the crap outa his mate. Now with a present marker, he sure as hell isnt gonna get 15bps, but with a ramper.....

7. UKPSF involved? Im a site/trade member and i dont recall any news of the UKPSF getting involved. Have the masses been asked if this is what they want, or is it as seems, the few decide what the masses want??

Just the teams and my 2ps worth.
No big debate, Just a little. Not everyone thinks this is a good idea and a NAY vote if we got one.

1, Well if the rule is nigh on impossible to police not just difficult, we have to do something.

2, The very same was said about using semis instead of pumps, and the nxl seems to have teams that win games.

3, How do you know you can fire more than 15bps, how do I know you are not cheating!!

4, We will have to wait and see, experience says it will not, you have said you can fire more than 15 bps.
Do you ever lose!!

5, What do you think we should do.
I/we want paintball to become a sport, so we have to talk to the Goverment.

6, What are you on about, many many guns come with ramp modes standard!
And a lot of "punter" markers have full auto.

7 The UKPSF represents sites and players.
Have the players been informed about the site checks the insurance companys will insist on soon, or is it not there concern.

I think you do not understand how serious this problem is, if we do not put it right we will lose paintball in this country because the insurance companys will not carry the risk as it is.

Some people think they can already fire at rates more than 15bps and say it wont be as safe if we cap it.

I had a player who today told me he can get more than 18 bps all day and I am being unfair on him because of his aquired skill will now be matched by anyone.
The marker he use's is one of the better ones and he has used an egg for years - you know them hoppers that feed about 14-16 bps.

Russ

 

[sykesg]

16bps at the very most

 

[Steve Hancock]

The overall argument in favour of this is: until another option is presented we have to compare the pro’s and cons of the current situation and those with the rule in place. And while there are reasons not to implement it there are more reasons to implement it.

Originally posted by FAMINE
1. If difficult to enforce a rule, is it correct to just erase it?

From an idealist point of view: No. From a pragmatic point of view: What does “correct” matter?

Originally posted by FAMINE
2. Wheres the skill? any monkey can shoot lanes with a ramping board.

The argument against this is that there are other skills to the game that will be retained, and that currently this is not an element of the sport that contributes to determining the outcome of a game based on skill, rather based on rule breaking/adherence.

Originally posted by FAMINE
3. Why cap the limit for ALL markers? Hell if i can shoot fast, wtf should i be pulled from a game?

If you allow non-ramping or non-bouncy boards to exceed the cap players will use cheat boards that exceed 15 bps. And then we will be back in the same boat of trying to catch the cheat boards.

Originally posted by FAMINE
4. Its gonna slow plays and games down, everyone digs in and shoots lanes, plays the numbers game for a while and then finishes up. Paintball can be dull to watch at the best of times, without every game being a paint fest.

Quite possibly, but the game will adapt, perhaps the increased ease of running and shooting will encourage people to be able to suppress while moving making it a more dynamic game. I sometimes get the impression that part of the reason players stand there shooting is because they are so intensely involved with firing there markers quickly they can’t think of anything else. Perhaps removing players need to concentrate on fast firing will allow them to think about other things, such as movement.

Originally posted by FAMINE
5. Are you sure this is the right way to go with the home office, what if they decide to look to deep and decide they dont like what they see.

Good question, I'm happy to assume that Steve Bull knows what he is doing though.

Originally posted by FAMINE
6. Safety, any fool can go buy a ramping board marker. Little jonny buys one and shoots the crap outa his mate. Now with a present marker, he sure as hell isnt gonna get 15bps, but with a ramper.....

Are there major problems with this in the states where full auto is allowed (outside of the tourney circuit)? Not that I’m aware of.

Originally posted by FAMINE
7. UKPSF involved? Im a site/trade member and i dont recall any news of the UKPSF getting involved. Have the masses been asked if this is what they want, or is it as seems, the few decide what the masses want??

My first reaction is that this isn’t really a site/trade issue; so much as it is a tournament issue. But on second thoughts I would be wrong to make such an assumption, so I will leave you to elaborate if you feel to the contrary.

 

[Steve Hancock]

Oh beaten to it...

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Russell Smith
I had a player who today told me he can get more than 18 bps all day and I am being unfair on him because of his aquired skill will now be matched by anyone.
The marker he use's is one of the better ones and he has used an egg for years - you know them hoppers that feed about 14-16 bps.

Tell him he's full of ****. Because... err he just is.

 

[FAMINE]

Steve, in answer to no.7

As a site member we get a little more info through than standard members. But no questions were really raised on this subject.
I would have thought with something so large, all members of the UKPSF would have had a say prior to the UKPSF acting. There is more to paintball than just the tourny scene, and maybe others would like a say as well before the way our markers are portrayed to the public and goverment is addressed/altered.

Personally I am not too fussed, as in my opinion the UK goverment really dont see us as any threat. But on a tourny issue, you wont see me at a tourny where I could get pulled for doing nothing wrong (firing as fast as my marker is capable) yet the cheats are allowed to carry on.
I agree that its difficult to control/monitor. But I dont think condoning it and punishing the legit players is the way forward.

Hey, car crime and drugs are difficult to monitor and control, we gonna make them legal?

Just because an answer isnt here now, doesnt mean there is no answer!

 

[FAMINE]

Russel,

1. I agree, but is this the only way? What other options have been explored?

2. Lol, thats true, but paint was also 20p a ball. Times change, but through out its always been 1 shot per trigger pull. (apart from the short lived SP boards etc.)

3. Surely thats for the refs to determine, not the players. Would i trust a 1st time marshal to determine what my ROF was and possibly pull me from a game.

4. When have i said that?

5. OTalking is good, pushing the FA argument and change of classification IMHO is not. Personally i feel marker laws should become stronger, not weaker. (Marker registar etc.)

6. In america yes, Personally any markers we sell that may have a mode facility are disabled. Again, we have laws and most abide by them.
Changing them for those that choose not to is not really a great soloution.

7. Biting my tounge on this one. Would love to start a debate on this somewhere else.

Capping isnt the big issue for me, Although impossible to control through a lot of exsisting guns. The problem i see is the way moded and FA markers may become part of our sport, not because we want it, but because we cant stop it!

I do not see this rule curing the problem (cheats will just find a new way to gain that edge, where skill isnt an option) yet the refs get bogged down on field with yet another rule to enforce. allowing more time and space for the cheaters to cheat!

A person speeds in his car, he is fined/prosecuted, yet cars arent banned. Why would paintball be any different?



hang on, didnt paintball globally try this a few years back, and what happened? The industry didnt like the even playing ground (why buy a new marker when they all fire the same)
Strings were pulled, markers changed and the old 15bps cap went by the side. So maybe im worrying for nothing.

 

[Collier]

Originally posted by FAMINE
Russel,

1. I agree, but is this the only way? What other options have been explored?

Of course other options have been explored, the decision to go down this route hasn't been taken lightly. The current rule cannot be enforced.

Originally posted by FAMINE
3. Surely thats for the refs to determine, not the players. Would i trust a 1st time marshal to determine what my ROF was and possibly pull me from a game.

The marshall won't determine it, the piece of equipment he is using will!

Originally posted by FAMINE
Capping isnt the big issue for me, Although impossible to control through a lot of exsisting guns. The problem i see is the way moded and FA markers may become part of our sport, not because we want it, but because we cant stop it!

And in turn we get a rule we can actually enforce. What gun can't be ROF capped? The only I can think of would be mechanical. Sure you might not be able to cap them now but companies will release new software.

Originally posted by FAMINE

A person speeds in his car, he is fined/prosecuted, yet cars arent banned. Why would paintball be any different?

Because speeding regulations can be enforced! Tell me how you catch me with my cheat board that is only activated when I put in a secret code and turn's the mode off with a single button press ow when not fired for a set period of time? You can't and won't!!
With speeding I could enforce that every car which goes through an MOT has to have gps tracking I can then cross refferance the cars position to the speed limits in that area. Instant real time fine!