A must read - PA rule change for the 2005 season

[FAMINE]

Not at all collier,

If the marker was capable to moded shooting, ramping etc. Then it doesnt matter if u were using it or not, if you knew or not. The fact would remain it is still an illegal item under UK law.

Would put the responsibility on the player to check thier marker.

You didnt know it was chipped? whos fault is that. Its still chipped.

You werent gonna use that special software feature? How do i know? Its still got that feature.

Etc etc.

If your marker is illegal it doesnt matter if you use it or didnt even know it. The fact is its still illegal, and ignorance is no reason to be excluded from the law.

So there ya go, an easy answer and soloution in one. Personally i have no problems attending a tourny with that rule in place, I know my marker is 100% legal under current law and rule books.
As they say, those with nothing to hide are happy to show what they have.

As for stating on the chip what it is the marker could be removed for further inspection.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by FAMINE
I know my marker is 100% legal under current law and rule books.

What gun are you shooting currently?

Originally posted by FAMINE
As for stating on the chip what it is the marker could be removed for further inspection.

And that further inspection would be what? To achieve what? by whom?

That further inspection won't catch software cheats. It may catch extra switches and crap like that, but not the coded cheats.

 

[Collier]

Originally posted by FAMINE
Not at all collier,

If the marker was capable to moded shooting, ramping etc. Then it doesnt matter if u were using it or not, if you knew or not. The fact would remain it is still an illegal item under UK law.

Would put the responsibility on the player to check thier marker.

You didnt know it was chipped? whos fault is that. Its still chipped.

You werent gonna use that special software feature? How do i know? Its still got that feature.

Etc etc.

If your marker is illegal it doesnt matter if you use it or didnt even know it. The fact is its still illegal, and ignorance is no reason to be excluded from the law.

Therefore your marker is just as capable as being illegal as 'mine'! What do you think happens if you set your Speed's TR at max, or your g/f's Timmy on db1? Answer- Just as illegal as any cheat board that's what!!

As for the other points, lets say I buy a marker from the states, exactly how am I to know it has been chipped?? Oh I see it's another one of those 'impossible to do' points you like to make.

[edit] this thread is for debating not name calling [/edit by Collier]

 

[Rick27]

Originally posted by Collier
Therefore your marker is just as capable as being illegal as 'mine'! What do you think happens if you set your Speed's TR at max, or your g/f's Timmy on db1? Answer- Just as illegal as any cheat board that's what!!

As for the other points, lets say I buy a marker from the states, exactly how am I to know it has been chipped?? Oh I see it's another one of those 'impossible to do' points you like to make.

You're not an ostrich are you?

LMFAO
i totaly agree with you paul well said mate

 

[FAMINE]

Originally posted by Russell Smith
"Rule Change for 2005 Season

Markers will be allowed to fire at a rate of up to 15 balls per second utilising assisted modes of fire. This includes:

Response or reactive triggers

Rebounding triggers (also referred to as trigger bounce)

Software selectable modes, specifically ramping rates of fire and turbo modes



The rate of fire will be capped at 15 balls per second. In effect, this means that bouncing triggers and ramping rates of fire will no longer be penalised.



Full auto and ramping velocity will not permitted under any circumstances.

OK to take it back to the first post...

If I have any of my markers set on 1db or whatever I have the triggers set so there is 0 bounce. I know this as I have spent hours upon hours getting it that way! Thus the markers are still within UK law, 1 pull 1 shot.

Yet you are saying the time taken to achieve this, and the time learning to fire fast should be removed from the game. Any fool can shoot a reactive trigger fast. And by putting a cap on the ROF you are in fact handicappig those that can fire quick.
Now if your reasons are to even the playing field, then theres plenty of other things to be done.

I smoke 40 cigs a day and dont run as fast as i used to, so any fit players out there should have to wear a gas mask when playing against me. We have a few large gentlemen play on our squad, so can skinny small front players be made to wear extra weights (similar to horse racing)

Now i know its my choice to smoke and the fit players to train/work out. But I dont find it fair

Now these arent coming into the game any time soon, so that removes the "even playing field" argument. But I do not believe that there is zero way to enforce the current rules. There must be different ways.
One thing i thought about tonight is a marker MOT, maybe have a few companies checking markers during a regular service, and adding an anti tamper seal to chips. This doesnt get round software cheats, but would go some way to it. No MOT, No play.

Im sure even with these new proposed rules, those that wanna cheat still will, and as such would solve the problem, but create others. Whilst penalising those that practice hard to achieve good ROF etc. Hell why not make it a real easy move, just make own markers redundant. If we all get to shoot reactive trigger, bouncy markers, then just supply them at the tourny. Who would need to own a marker other than to train?


Whilst at it why not look at things like actually having set fields for all tournys so we could train on the fields we are gonna play on, and have some unbiased independant judging.
Hang on a min, i think I have reached my sarcasm level for one post

These things arent gonna change, maybe they shouldnt change. Are you 100% sure this is the right way to go, are you 100% sure the new sensor thingy works in all situations?

Maybe trial it for a while and see what people think, possibly at the PA and let the other tournys run as is, basically by trying to change the laws on markers, you are giving people no choice or say in the matter, this is possibly where my biggest issue lies, By all means run the PA with the new rule (there are other tournys that may not wanna do this), but let people decide if this is what they actually want .
I just dont wanna lose the training and experience that has given many a higher ROF than a first time player. But maybe that is the future of paintball. Im sure this should count some way to our sport, but you all seem to disagree.
Bring out the teams of 15 year old kids who can fire 15bps first time on a reactive trigger, run like the wind and hide behind a fag packet. Im sure the money and future of paintball is gonna be great on thier pocket money, as opposed to the masses who play now.

All i wanna know is where can I place my official objection, UKPSF, home office, up my arse??
This isnt just my view, but that of a few and im sure your intentions are good and you feel this is the way to go, but there are some of us that feel strongly the other way too!

OK Im now officially done with this thread, dont wanna get into a petty personal argument. Anyone have an issue with me feel free to discuss jamie@apocalypsepaintball.co.uk

Team Umpalumpah for world domination!

 

[Collier]

Originally posted by FAMINE
OK to take it back to the first post...

If I have any of my markers set on 1db or whatever I have the triggers set so there is 0 bounce. I know this as I have spent hours upon hours getting it that way! Thus the markers are still within UK law, 1 pull 1 shot.

Yet you are saying the time taken to achieve this, and the time learning to fire fast should be removed from the game. Any fool can shoot a reactive trigger fast. And by putting a cap on the ROF you are in fact handicappig those that can fire quick.
Now if your reasons are to even the playing field, then theres plenty of other things to be done.

I smoke 40 cigs a day and dont run as fast as i used to, so any fit players out there should have to wear a gas mask when playing against me. We have a few large gentlemen play on our squad, so can skinny small front players be made to wear extra weights (similar to horse racing)

Now i know its my choice to smoke and the fit players to train/work out. But I dont find it fair

Now these arent coming into the game any time soon, so that removes the "even playing field" argument. But I do not believe that there is zero way to enforce the current rules. There must be different ways.
One thing i thought about tonight is a marker MOT, maybe have a few companies checking markers during a regular service, and adding an anti tamper seal to chips. This doesnt get round software cheats, but would go some way to it. No MOT, No play.

Im sure even with these new proposed rules, those that wanna cheat still will, and as such would solve the problem, but create others. Whilst penalising those that practice hard to achieve good ROF etc. Hell why not make it a real easy move, just make own markers redundant. If we all get to shoot reactive trigger, bouncy markers, then just supply them at the tourny. Who would need to own a marker other than to train?


Whilst at it why not look at things like actually having set fields for all tournys so we could train on the fields we are gonna play on, and have some unbiased independant judging.
Hang on a min, i think I have reached my sarcasm level for one post

These things arent gonna change, maybe they shouldnt change. Are you 100% sure this is the right way to go, are you 100% sure the new sensor thingy works in all situations?

Maybe trial it for a while and see what people think, possibly at the PA and let the other tournys run as is, basically by trying to change the laws on markers, you are giving people no choice or say in the matter, this is possibly where my biggest issue lies, By all means run the PA with the new rule (there are other tournys that may not wanna do this), but let people decide if this is what they actually want .
I just dont wanna lose the training and experience that has given many a higher ROF than a first time player. But maybe that is the future of paintball. Im sure this should count some way to our sport, but you all seem to disagree.
Bring out the teams of 15 year old kids who can fire 15bps first time on a reactive trigger, run like the wind and hide behind a fag packet. Im sure the money and future of paintball is gonna be great on thier pocket money, as opposed to the masses who play now.

All i wanna know is where can I place my official objection, UKPSF, home office, up my arse??
This isnt just my view, but that of a few and im sure your intentions are good and you feel this is the way to go, but there are some of us that feel strongly the other way too!

OK Im now officially done with this thread, dont wanna get into a petty personal argument. Anyone have an issue with me feel free to discuss jamie@apocalypsepaintball.co.uk

Team Umpalumpah for world domination!

1. Bull, if you set your speed 05 on a tr at max it'll store shots and spit them out as and when, entirely illigal! No amount of 'trigger tuning' will change that!
2. What about the skill of field movement, timing etc etc all those other skills you've picked up other the years along with learning to fire fast, first time players aren't going to be accomplished at that!
4.The fitness arguement v's you being a smoker don't work, sorry but that arguement just stinks of desperation on your part!
5.MOT, so I install my ramp chip to my marker and send it in for this MOT safe in the knowledge it's secrets are undetectable, My board gets its tamper proof seal and off I go on my way. How has this stopped me using my ramp chip? Also who's paying for this 'marker MOT'? you've already said that you shouldn't have to as you don't cheat blah, blah, blah.... And aside regarding sealed boards, you think companies don't fit 'assisted' software on their own guns??
6. My girlfriends Dad had a rip on my marker over christmas, he's never picked up a marker before in his life, his rof was equal to mine! My point being that the 'skill of being able to shoot fast' is IMO one of the easiest 'skills' to aquire.
7. Unbiased refs? you mean like ref's that don't play for a team competing in the series you're playing in? yeah got them already!
8. The whole idea of this thread is discussion and debate, therefore what's the point in taking any of the points raised 'off' the boards and onto email?
9. My ostrich comment was in referance to your apparent nievity in this matter, however I thought it inappropriate so deleted it.

 

[Steve Hancock]

And the PA has plans to release field designs as soon as they are in a possition to do so. They haven't been able to previously due to the uncertainty as to which fields will be available at each event. Yes this would be great and i'm looking forward to it, but it doesn't have any bearing on the proposed rule.

 

[ANDY-501]

When comparing the new ramping to 15 bps rule to the one they have in xball has anyone stopped to think that xball is played on a large field with only 5 players a side and still has people getting shot up and not making their primary bunkers ?

I have heard a rumour that field sizes for 7 man are going to get smaller and some tournament series already run 7 man games on fields with sizes and cover better suited to 5 man games. How will giving everyone extra firepower on these small fields improve the games ?

As you usually only play another team once per tournament some games are gonna come down to the luck of how many of their team you can hit on the break.

players who have any sort of run to their barricade through a shooting lane are gonna get lit up for at least 50% of their games and when they are only playing 7 - 10 games a day and spending around £100 to play that tournament they are not gonna be too happy. In xball the players will be out playing again in minutes rather than anything upto an hour and get to play far more games !

xball players are skilled players to begin with and already know how to use that firepower. It is more likely for a noob player to be sticking his marker blindly round a barricade into someones face / up someones mask at full ramp than someone who is playing xball.

some people argue that paintball is an elitist sport due to the fact that it costs a couple of hundred pounds to buy a marker but if you say to be able to compete at any sort of level in a tournament you will now need to spend around four times this figure surely that is just putting the game further out of the reach of the new and young players we are trying to attract to the sport ? If anyone says you dont have to have a gun that ramps to play this would be true but then it will hardly level the playing field.

marshalls dont seem to be able to tell exactly what has happened when a player makes a quick runthrough even on a 5 man field with many marshalls judging it which can lead to arguments, how are they gonna cope with far more paint in the air and players on the field while these moves are taking place, this will require extra marshalls who will require paying !


I am not in anyway trying to knock the hard work put in by all the guys involved with the proposed rule change but am just saying it will not be as clear cut as just permitting a capped ramp mode. By solving one problem in this way it could be creating more in other areas.

I would be for the idea perhaps if the rate of fire was something like 17 bps which would stop most people with fast fingers in semi auto from being pulled needlessly for a skill they had learnt.
(anyone who thinks walking the trigger is not a well learnt skill is wrong as it is not just about standing over at the chrono station ripping on the trigger it is about being able to do it that fast while running at near to top speed down the field and shooting accurately at a target)

Also if perhaps the rule was only allowed in the more experienced divisions.

And if all seven man games were scrapped in favour of more aggressive 5 man games !

Just a few observations and ideas


ANDY.

 

[Collier]

Originally posted by ANDY-501
When comparing the new ramping to 15 bps rule to the one they have in xball has anyone stopped to think that xball is played on a large field with only 5 players a side and still has people getting shot up and not making their primary bunkers ?

I have heard a rumour that field sizes for 7 man are going to get smaller and some tournament series already run 7 man games on fields with sizes and cover better suited to 5 man games. How will giving everyone extra firepower on these small fields improve the games ?

As you usually only play another team once per tournament some games are gonna come down to the luck of how many of their team you can hit on the break.

players who have any sort of run to their barricade through a shooting lane are gonna get lit up for at least 50% of their games and when they are only playing 7 - 10 games a day and spending around £100 to play that tournament they are not gonna be too happy. In xball the players will be out playing again in minutes rather than anything upto an hour and get to play far more games !

xball players are skilled players to begin with and already know how to use that firepower. It is more likely for a noob player to be sticking his marker blindly round a barricade into someones face / up someones mask at full ramp than someone who is playing xball.

some people argue that paintball is an elitist sport due to the fact that it costs a couple of hundred pounds to buy a marker but if you say to be able to compete at any sort of level in a tournament you will now need to spend around four times this figure surely that is just putting the game further out of the reach of the new and young players we are trying to attract to the sport ? If anyone says you dont have to have a gun that ramps to play this would be true but then it will hardly level the playing field.

marshalls dont seem to be able to tell exactly what has happened when a player makes a quick runthrough even on a 5 man field with many marshalls judging it which can lead to arguments, how are they gonna cope with far more paint in the air and players on the field while these moves are taking place, this will require extra marshalls who will require paying !


I am not in anyway trying to knock the hard work put in by all the guys involved with the proposed rule change but am just saying it will not be as clear cut as just permitting a capped ramp mode. By solving one problem in this way it could be creating more in other areas.

So hang on, you write all of the above saying how 15 bps ramping will be unsafe, noobs shooting over baracades at full ramp etc etc etc..
And then go on to say....

Originally posted by ANDY-501

I would be for the idea perhaps if the rate of fire was something like 17 bps

WTF????????

 

[ANDY-501]

And if you would have quoted the last part after that as well you will note it says:

Also if perhaps the rule was only allowed in the more experienced divisions.

And if all seven man games were scrapped in favour of more aggressive 5 man games !


ANDY.