A little story about sanbagging for Magued...

[DMZ Hasse]

Why all this pussy footing around ?

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff


No one stops a guy from buying the whole Man Utd. roster and have them play for Scounthorpe United - same in paintball..... because this will regulate itself...... most good players will not want to take the trip from 3rd to the Premiership all over again.

Individual player seedings is a terrible idea - not only is it complicated, but it allows teams to speculate in who plays what events.
Nick

Yes.. but this also means I can sell our spot in the 2 division to rich bulgarian oil millionaires. Who owns that spot? I bet most paintball teams aren't even legal entities yet. That will take a while.

About individual seedings: How hard can it be? It is a solution based on how reality looks today.

 

[duffistuta]

Maybe, just maybe, if the Millennium said this year "we will be a closed league in 2006, start investing in your teams for this is going to be huge" and have someone with the cash to back such a long term commitment.


>>>Problem here is that it is chicken and egg.

To get the big money, you need TV. To get TV, you need a televisable product. To make a televisable product, you have to run a league in the correct way. To run a league in the correct way you need money. To run a team in the correct way you need big money. To get the big money, you need TV.

The only way to break into this cycle is to do a Richmond - i.e. have the courage, finance and strength of will to impose a format you 100% believe will work on TV onto an existing series, then court TV companies with your product.

Either that or you need a Pure Promotions to risk a lot of money on an existing format. And, if the NPPL is indeed seriously considering adopting a new format in tandem with the Millennium, then it suggests to me that they feel there are better formats for TV than the existing 7-Man situation.

I believe the teams will only organise and professionalise to any degree when there is an incentive for them to do so. NXL has created that incentive in the USA with the promise of paid players on a televised league. NPPL has done it through a combination of top class prize money and top notch events - and now with TV in the mix.

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Hasse

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
There is NOTHING wrong with you selling your 2nd division spot !

- Mind you.... you can ONLY sell it IF you are a legal entity !

I DO get your point however, and part of setting up fixed divisions and promotion/relegation, is ofcourse to require teams to get organised as clubs. - It doesn't have to be that complicated.....the MS can just have a set of standard bylaws that a club has to use as a minimum in setting up their club.

Individual seedings IS a terrible idea, because it will allow teams that want to stay in a lower division, to bring their worst seeded players to the last event, and then go on sandbagging next year.

Nick

The clubs need to be legal entities in their respective countries, it needs to be regulated how you choose your representatives which are the people that can enter agreements with the Millennium Series. I think the level of difficulty to register something like this varies from country to country. Otherwise there will be an interesting situation when a breakout wing of team Evolution claims ownership of the spot in the series.

Do you think that sandbagging teams would deliberately lose to be able to sandbag next year? Being a technology optimist, I am sure there is a way to create a smart seeding system to prevent lots of these types of behaviour.

 

[duffistuta]

Incorporate teams as limited companies - most of the US Pro, Am and even Novice teams have owners and are in fact limited companies, as are some European teams.

 

[Baca Loco]

Slightly different point of view--just to be difficult. Hard to imaigne I know . . . .
While I applaud Richmond's efforts and the whole X-Ball thing it seems to me the jury is still out on just what the result will be. Succeed or fail it was still worth doing and will have contributed to paintball in significant ways but--
Even amongst the current crop of NXL players there is serious unhappiness and a real possibility of major changes to rosters in the off season and I think this situation highlights the distinction between Duffy's views and Hasse's position. With the NXL experiment the players took it on not so much for love of the new game--as many apparently don't like playing X--but for the possible pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Now I don't know all the thinking behind considered changes to the Mil but some of them include keeping up with the Joneses (ie: U.S. ball) building a new paintball model that might draw in TV and fans, etc. All well and good but nowhere does anyone seem to have the slightest interest in what today's player thinks.
If the Mil thinks it needs to make changes that is their prerogative and more power to them but it would probably serve everyone's long term interest if the process was opened up sufficiently for the players to know more than the latest batch of rumors and for the decision-makers to allow the mass of their current customers at least the opportunity to voice an opinion 'cus most of these teams and players are in it for the love of the game, not the hope of some Pro future and if too many changes kill their love you're gonna lose that customer.
(Of course if the TV future ever arrives that doesn't matter so--)

 

[duffistuta]

Doesn't matter any more - the Castle which our office overlooks has just been evacuated and cordoned off cos of a bomb threat, and I'm sitting here looking down on the whole thing wondering if I will be killed by the blast or by shards of glass first. Robbo is hiding behind his PC and Joe is giggling cos someone sits between him and a window so he thinks he's safe.

I blame Bush.

Later all - it's been real.

 

[Robbo]

Many things that have been discussed here are details that will need to be sorted as soon as possible but as of yet they still have not been resolved.
Short term we need to get the format right, we need to get the organisation of the league right in terms of who is gonna be playing in it and how the league is played out in terms of what scoring conditions are applied when Euro teams go Stateside and compete and vice versa.
Considerations like franchise allocations are gonna be put hold on for the time being.
There are a few teams being asked to trial the new format and report back.
Over the next two weeks there are two big meetings that will determine the final outcome of Europe's direction for 2004.
Until then all we got is 'talk'

I am pretty confident that if the initial decision is made correctly then we do have the expertise and will to achieve a Superleague that will put Euro teams on the world scene, if the initial decision is the wrong one.............

 

[goose]

Whew - what a read...

Points - counter points - and clear thinking from Brockdorff - THIS THREAD HAS EVREYTHING.

Seriously tho' - I think many people are either in a state of denial - or have just played pball for too long.

Hasse, name one - just one - truly mainstream professional sport that allows childhood buddies to compete along side each other in whatever division they like for time eternal. None that I can think of. NBA, NFL, Major League Baseball, Champions League Footbal, Rugby, and the list goes on and on. These are true professional sports - the owner is the highest bidder, and the players are either pawns for their ego - or ho's who go to the highest bidder (it's up for you decide how you want to refer to them).

These divisions are locked down - until the league owners decide to open them up (franchise expansion). These are the players who get the money and the glory.

But for every single NBA player there are hundreds, dare I say thousands or maybe millions of players who either play in "lesser" leagues - or HEAVEN FORBID - the FUN OF IT!!!

The problem I see it, is that a lot of people who, just because they play 1 or 2 Millenniums a year - or even ALL the events - figure that they have now made the big time and deserve Fame, Fortune and a Free Ride. Hell how many times have we posts from Player A on Team B who has won the Pub League 5 man and now wants full sponsorship??

How many Sunday football teams play for the money - I think I can safely say NONE. They play for the bragging rights - they also know that if they win they will move up - they lose they will move down. If a team of friends wants to play together then they have to go where the league tells them to.

Playing with your friends at a top level is great - but don't expect it to last too long. Once the money comes these days will be OVER.

I know people will say "Yeah but I spend a lot of time/money/energy/WHATEVER on paintball" as duffy said - YOU DO IT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO - nobody forces you to drop the money you do, nobody forces you to spend the time away from the family you do.

All we ever hear are people crying that paintball isn't mainstream - that we aren't on t.v. - that there isn't any money. Do people actually think that once all these things happen it will become EASIER?? Get a grip on yourself.

There is an old saying - "Be careful what you wish for - because you might just get it". The number of players who would be out on their asses if big money where to enter the teams - would be huge. All the old farts would be replaced with smaller, faster, Ollie Lang clones. Trust me - I'm one of them who would be out, along with Nick and anyone else over the age of 33.

Sandbagging won't be a problem once there is true money in the sport - there will be either forced relegation/promotion or some other system - but all the best players will be playing where the money is - not Am A or Rookie.

Now with all that said - do I think there is some way to make things better for the "lesser leagues"? Sure there is - it would require a comprehensive player registrationtracking system - it wouldn't have to be that complicated but it would have to be accepted by all the major and minor events/leagues. Too bad there isn't an organization that could do this.....

goose

 

[duffistuta]

Ooh, the remote control robot - we've just been told to leave the building.

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Originally posted by goose

Hasse, name one - just one - truly mainstream professional sport that allows childhood buddies to compete along side each other in whatever division they like for time eternal. None that I can think of. NBA, NFL, Major League Baseball, Champions League Footbal, Rugby, and the list goes on and on. These are true professional sports - the owner is the highest bidder, and the players are either pawns for their ego - or ho's who go to the highest bidder (it's up for you decide how you want to refer to them).

Just to annoy you, I will name one: Sailing... but that is not relevant. I think most people in this thread more or less agree on how paintball will look and be organized when it is a professional sport. The item I disagree with some of you is when the sport is ready for it (and usually, I am the one looking at the horizon, while others hold me back and pester me with sad facts from reality)

Lock the series now, with no long term commitment from MS, and you will lose most of the teams. (and maybe that is the way to go, you will create NXL east)
Most Pro teams would still play, but what about the rest? What would happen in the lower divisions if the series is locked? Would it make more prize/sponsor money available for teams at our level? If not, how could we commit to playing the whole series? In AM A this year, 16 teams played/reffed 5 tournaments or more, 9 teams played the whole series. In AM B much fewer. I doubt that these teams didn't play the whole series because they didn't want to.

But maybe the fact is that the days of pan european lower division tournaments are over. Lower level football teams play mostly local leagues, maybe we should as well?