A little story about sanbagging for Magued...

[duffistuta]

OK, here's my problem with that: the way I currently understand it, the superleague will be playing the top secret new format (as and when the kinks are ironed out), the rest of the league will, at first, be playing standard 7-Man.

Now the demand to play the new format will be large I believe, so if you leave it to first come first serve then you may have a superleague featuring 4 recognised Pro teams and a smattering of others from across the brackets.

If you leave it open only to Pros on a first-come, first serve basis, then I will gaurantee you have at least a dozen teams turn Pro just to play in that league.

Your superleague suddenly ain't so super anymore...

 

[Wadidiz]

I see your point, Duff, but how do you guarantee attendence by those "invited"?

Steve

 

[duffistuta]

Contractual obligation, money upfront, instant expulsion from superleague if you miss an event, many, many ways...

If 16 can't commit, make the superleague 8 teams and put 4 divisions under them.

Now is the time for tough decisions Steve - you know it and I know it.

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Originally posted by duffistuta

Now Millennium doesn't even have the spectre of competition that the PSP had when it made this bold move, so hopefully they will take the same strong stance, say 'This is what we're doing - you lot are in the superleague, the rest of you pick Div 1 - 3, promotion and relegation for top 4 at end of season, get on with it'.

Setting the Super-duper League aside, it will not work. If we do not want to be promoted or relegated, we just form a new team.

My point is that in 80% of the cases (in lower divisions, my estimate) THERE ARE NO REAL TEAMS, meaning that in most cases the team consists of it's players, nothing more. Compare it to Manchester United. If all A-team players quit, they could still make it in Premier League. Why? Because in that team there is also know-how, coaches, experience, a reserve team, junior teams, etc etc. A paintball team is still mainly a band of brothers motivated and financially strong enough to travel over Europe, nothing more.

Even if Nexus and UD2 are invited to play Premier League, what if the guys from Cyclone, Powertrip or (real case) former NBK want to play Millennium, in a new team constellation, and divisions are set? In which division will they play, and who will do those case-by-case assessments? And what will they be based on? Individual player achievements? Either that, or the Millennium Series need to know the level of every player in Europe (and the US for that matter)

 

[duffistuta]

Setting the Super-duper League aside, it will not work. If we do not want to be promoted or relegated, we just form a new team.

>>>Nope. After Season 1, all new teams go automatically into the bottom division. There you go. If you are a pussy, get promoted/relegated and don't like it and choose to throw all your toys out of your pram, then fine - your new team starts from the beginning.

My point is that in 80% of the cases (in lower divisions, my estimate) THERE ARE NO REAL TEAMS, meaning that in most cases the team consists of it's players, nothing more. Compare it to Manchester United. If all A-team players quit, they could still make it in Premier League. Why? Because in that team there is also know-how, coaches, experience, a reserve team, junior teams, etc etc. A paintball team is still mainly a band of brothers motivated and financially strong enough to travel over Europe, nothing more.

>>>And if it remains that way Paintball will never be a sport. Hence why Richmond did what he did, and why Millennium must do similar.

Even if Nexus and UD2 are invited to play Premier League, what if the guys from Cyclone, Powertrip or (real case) former NBK want to play Millennium and divisions are set?

>>>Either they receive an invite into the Superleague or they don't. If they don't, they select one of the other divisions according to how they perceive their own abilities and play there.


In which division will they play, and who will do those case-by-case assessments? And what will they be based on? Individual player achievements? Either that, or the Millennium Series need to know the level of every player in Europe (and the US for that matter)

>>>As I said in my above response to you, self-seed. It doesn't differ next season to any season past: you form a team, you select what bracket you play in - only difference is, you can't select the Superleague.

Where is the problem?

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Sorry I don't get it:

Either the divisions are locked, and the new teams Mexus and Ugly Swans will have to start from Novice. OR it is self seed, which means we can change name after each season. It can't be both ways, can it? Or do you say that it is free seed for one year, and the the divisions are locked? Then what? Which novice (or AMb) team wants to pay over 1000€ a tournament to be ass-wooped by pro players and have no chance to ever win a tourney?

You can't make a paintball team something it isn't. That doesn't mean that paintball doesn't have a future as a sport. Like I said, set what you are talking about as a five year goal (or three or whatever) and work consistently towards that direction. Then paintball teams have the chance to evolve into what you are talking about. You have to realize that most sports that are big and well organized have evolved for 50 - 100 years. It would be nice to cut that development time down to 4 months (next Millennium) but is is realistic?

 

[duffistuta]

Or do you say that it is free seed for one year, and the the divisions are locked?

>>>Yep, that's excacly what I said above.

Then what? Which novice (or AMb) team wants to pay over 1000€ a tournament to be ass-wooped by pro players and have no chance to ever win a tourney?

>>>How will that happen? If you are good enough to be promoted then by definition you are good enough to take your chances in the higher bracket.

You can't make a paintball team something it isn't.

>>Isn't that exactly what Richmond did with the NXL?

That doesn't mean that paintball doesn't have a future as a sport. Like I said, set what you are talking about as a five year goal (or three or whatever) and work consistently towards that direction. Then paintball teams have the chance to evolve into what you are talking about.

>>Won't happen. Why should they? Where's the incentive? Know why everyone is getting their **** together stateside? Cos they see the chance of playing in a proper sporting league that is televised and paid for. You wait a few years, you miss your chance. Look what happened when Millennium turned down NXl last year. Needs doing now or say bye-bye to the Paintball Boat, cos it's leaving real soon.

You have to realize that most sports that are big and well organized have evolved for 50 - 100 years. It would be nice to cut that development time down to 4 months (next Millennium) but is is realistic?

>>NXL. Nuff said.

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Originally posted by duffistuta
>>>How will that happen? If you are good enough to be promoted then by definition you are good enough to take your chances in the higher bracket.

Still don't get it. Please explain how a new team enters the Millennium and when they get promoted from Novice to e.g AM A. Is it after one tournament? One season? Other?

You can't make a paintball team something it isn't.

>>Isn't that exactly what Richmond did with the NXL?

>>NXL. Nuff said. [/B]

Yes, that's right. NXL. Let's all become NXL. NXL is what, 8 teams? 8 "real" teams taken from a population of paintball players that is (5? 10?) times bigger than the player base in Europe. What about the other teams and levels? Richmond (or Jerry Braun) did not lock the xball divisions. Are all the other divisions just feeder teams for the Super League without any real value? With your way of reasoning, the Millennium Series should be cut down to 16 teams. And then you can play local tournaments and hope to be discovered by your local Super League team. I try to add up what you say, and it doesn't.

 

[duffistuta]

Still don't get it. Please explain how a new team enters the Millennium and when they get promoted from Novice to e.g AM A. Is it after one tournament? One season? Other?

>>>Right, let's say there's an 8 team superleague, then Divisions 1 -4. New team starts in Div 4. If they finish in the top 4 overall after a season then they get promoted to Division 3, if they don't, they don't.


Yes, that's right. NXL. Let's all become NXL. NXL is what, 8 teams? 8 "real" teams taken from a population of paintball players that is (5? 10?) times bigger than the player base in Europe. What about the other teams and levels? Richmond (or Jerry Braun) did not lock the xball divisions. Are all the other divisions just feeder teams for the Super League without any real value? With your way of reasoning, the Millennium Series should be cut down to 16 teams. And then you can play local tournaments and hope to be discovered by your local Super League team. I try to add up what you say, and it doesn't.

>>>At the moment, the NXL is 8 teams in size. The reason that so many other teams are professionalising, getting themselves organised, training, bringing on new players etc., is to try and force their way into the NXL as they perceive that it, like other American sports, will expand into a city-by-city or maybe state-by-stae organisation. They all want to become one of those teams and live the dream. That is what the NXL represents to US Paintball at the moment.

And I am not talking about Millennium becoming NXl, I am talking about it adopting a similar format:

NXL = Euro Superleague

Mill. Div 1 - 3 = XBall divisions 1 - 3

Only with locked leagues and promotion and relegation.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by duffistuta
Contractual obligation, money upfront, instant expulsion from superleague if you miss an event, many, many ways...

If 16 can't commit, make the superleague 8 teams and put 4 divisions under them.

Now is the time for tough decisions Steve - you know it and I know it.

I really don't see the Dynastys, Stranges, Russian Legions, etc. of the world having enough faith in Millennium (yet) to make such commitments. Sorry 'bout that.

I think the only realistic and practical way would be to make it open to first-pay, guaranteed play. If one or two top teams miss it and it is bang-up success then teams will line up IMO.

Concerning D-day: you're absolutely right. I just fear that some of the decisions could end up half baked.

I wish that a group of PB thinkers could be invited to a "summit" real soon to hash out (no pun intended) the ideas. (And I would want to be part of that even though I don't even trust myself.)

I would like to see some serious trials run too.

Richmond has to be applauded because he went the whole way with X Ball. Millennium mustn't do this thing half way or it's doomed from the git-go.

Steve