A little story about sanbagging for Magued...

[Gudmann]

Demoting a team ?

Originally posted by Wadidiz
Then a team has to either recruit some "heavy hitters" like Manchester would have to do or just suck it up and play anyway. Either that or just choose not play without the top talent.

Can any of you think of any reasonable solution?

Steve

Well, how about a team getting demoted ???

Man U have to play the premier next year, even if their complete roster of players leave...they might end up at the bottom of the league and get demoted 1 level down.

So, if a team loses players, they might have to play one season at their current level, if their results for the season are below some limit, then the gyroscopes points might be used to justify a demotion one level down ?

EDIT..
The points would however be very useful to place a new team of composed experienced players in the ranks. It's a good idea.

EDIT SOME MORE
I'm not inventing the wheel here, but then the Millennium and NPPL might limit the number of Pro and Am A teams they recognise, say 18 Pro teams and 32 Am A, unlimited Am B and Nov.

Initial ranks would have to be based on some formula of players points and last 2 - 3 seasons results.

Teams would then have to earn their promotion to Am A and Pro by being in the top 4 of the series and equal numbers of lowest team be demoted.

Any new team would then have to enter at Am B or Nov and win their way up.
END OF EDIT

my best
Gudmann Bragi

 

[jahlad]

Originally posted by gyroscope
The problem is ultimately with players playing in divisions that are lower than where they belong. Do not force teams to bump up, force players to do so.

If you want to be very careful about it, award seeding points to players who are on teams that place or participate. Add 5 points to a player who comes in 4th, 7 in 3rd, etc. Add 1 point for participating in an event. Cap the total points a team can roster. That way, a team can have a player who is technically capable of play at a higher level, but he is balanced by less experienced players.

This reflects reality, somewhat. A team with one pro and 6 rookies will have their work cut out for them in even the rookie division, I would think. If that is still objectionable, make it impossible for players with experience to play at the lowest tiers of the series.

best idea ive heard in AGES!

 

[duffistuta]

Why do we always have to try and complicate the **** out of everything in Paintball?

It's a team game, so the team is ranked, and with promotion and demotion it's oh-so-simple. You lose players to another team/injury/whatever, tough - you get relegated. You have a cracking season, get promoted and half your team leaves - tough, replace them or get relegated.

It's what happens in other sports and with all the talk of making Paintball more like these other sports so the viewing public can understand it, I am at a loss as to why we should be trying to complicate ranking matters.

To reiterate what everyone with a brain (and Brockdorff ) has been saying for ages: Divisions. Promotion. Relegation. End of story.

 

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by duffistuta
Why do we always have to try and complicate the **** out of everything in Paintball?

It's a team game, so the team is ranked, and with promotion and demotion it's oh-so-simple. You lose players to another team/injury/whatever, tough - you get relegated. You have a cracking season, get promoted and half your team leaves - tough, replace them or get relegated.

It's what happens in other sports and with all the talk of making Paintball more like these other sports so the viewing public can understand it, I am at a loss as to why we should be trying to complicate ranking matters.

To reiterate what everyone with a brain (and Brockdorff ) has been saying for ages: Divisions. Promotion. Relegation. End of story.

Word! Preach on my brotha!

 

[Stefu]

Originally posted by duffistuta

It's what happens in other sports and with all the talk of making Paintball more like these other sports so the viewing public can understand it, I am at a loss as to why we should be trying to complicate ranking matters.

I agree with this idea but I think there's one big problem. Playing MS requires lots of money and most of that comes out of the players pockets. Players want value for their money, ie. fair chance to make it to semis/finals.

Is isn't that much of problem at lower ranks, as many teams are participating just for the experience. But it is a problem at Pro/am A and am A/am B levels. These teams commit to the series and make big personal sacrifices to play in it. They also want to have a shot at the top. It might be fun for a while to play with the best, but unless you're making any progress you lose interest and don't want to spend any more money only to play some preliminary games and fill in the numbers of required teams at their division. This can clearly be seen in the current MS pro rankings, out of the 22 euro pro teams only 10 played or reffed 4 or more events (4 best results are added to the MS rankings).

The system could work if the number of premier league teams is kept low enough to make it competitive for all teams. Div 1 could be classified open to anyone else and forced promotions should be used in div 2, 3 and 4.

-Stefan-

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Stefu
The system could work if the number of premier league teams is kept low enough to make it competitive for all teams. Div 1 could be classified open to anyone else and forced promotions should be used in div 2, 3 and 4.

-Stefan-

Good points. I think 16 premier teams would be good.

Steve

 

[duffistuta]

>>>These teams commit to the series and make big personal sacrifices to play in it. They also want to have a shot at the top. It might be fun for a while to play with the best, but unless you're making any progress you lose interest and don't want to spend any more money only to play


See, this is the bit I don't get. It's sport. It's survival of the fittest. You can't cut it, you get relegated or you drop out...it's go hard or go home. The people who get a shot at the top are the people who deserve a shot at the top - those who train most/train smartest/have the most natural ability/put the most effort into attracting sponsors/a combination of all these factors.

Seriously, players bemoaning the sacrifices they make makes me laugh - you all do it for one primary reason: cos you enjoy it. No-one's getting paid to play, no-ones winning enough money - certainly in Europe - to make it anywhere near financially viable.

People play for fun - if you feel that the sacrifices you make outweight your enjoyment, stop playing.

Not having a pop at you Stefan, but it does my head in listening to players continually refering to the sacrifices and hardships they undergo to play Paintball, it's like they don't actually want to play and someone's holding a gun to their heads to make them play ball.

I do agree aboutb the top league being elite though; it should be small and only feature the best of the best.

 

[DMZ Hasse]

Didn't we already have a long discussion about ID cards, that would more or less solve the sandbagging problem, here on the forum?

I DO NOT AGREE that we should have fixed division and automatic promotion/relegation. Not in five years. To set a long term plan where this is the goal is another matter, I would fully support that. Millennium, as it is played today, is not ready for it.

THIS IS WHY there needs to be a system built based on the ID cards where a ranking is calculated based on the rosters success rate in earlier tournaments. This means that e.g. team Evolution would have to play AM A in February's Joy Masters because we have 5 members of our roster that came top 5 in four or more tournaments in AM B last year. The team's score is the sum, or average, of it's players ranking scores. Scores determine which division you play. If you have a too high score, you have to take in more inexperienced players, or move up.

THIS MEANS
1. All teams get to play their peers, seedings become more fair
2. More new players are introduced by those teams who are successful, but do not want to move up
3. Something useful is made with the ID cards

I see no point in Ugly Ducklings2 and Nexus starting at Novice this year, move to AMb next year and then ultimately in 2006 finally play Pro where they belong.

 

[duffistuta]

Who says they will? Millennium series picks the Elite League, let's say it's 16 teams, that are invited in because of their ability and commitment to the series. Divisions one through three self-seed - you pick where you start off, and go from there. Obviously, prizes (for those people who actually are bothered about them), need to be arranged so that going into a higher league is heavily incentivised.

There will never be a right time to do it, just like there wasn't a right team for XBall - Richmond grasped the netle, said 'This is what we're doing, like it or lump it', and bang - hello NXL.

Now Millennium doesn't even have the spectre of competition that the PSP had when it made this bold move, so hopefully they will take the same strong stance, say 'This is what we're doing - you lot are in the superleague, the rest of you pick Div 1 - 3, promotion and relegation for top 4 at end of season, get on with it'.

 

[Wadidiz]

Duffy,

This may be getting away from the thrust of this thread but I'm not sure it would be possible to have the, say, 16 teams of the premier league be set up by invitation.

Reason: how can we be sure that those 16 teams will show up for every event, even if they make an up-front commitment (which would also not be likely).

I think it should be first pay, first enter.

Steve