Bottle Blows Up

[Russell Smith]

Its nige !

edit ~ Beaten to it, but even so !!!!

But the bottle was fine, a slight burn on it, it was the fill nipple, someone had put oil on a previous bottle, once nige put his in the thing, filled up to around 5k, somehow, and then it blew, the fill nipple came CLEAN off, Plus the threads of the reg where in the gun, No idea where the body of the reg went! The bottle cover was burnt,

So at what point did the bottle fail, oh I see, it didn't.

It must also be Stako's fault the stock market is hurting


Russ

 

[Edd Hobday]

This is no knee jerk reaction fella. Something today was VERY VERY WRONG. To continue using a piece of equipment that has a question mark over it's safety to the extent that it could kill people is just plain crazy. What next - some guy in March loses both hands to a stako ? But hey, lets not jump to conclusions, ... a player gets a broken hip from a stako exploding event in June (but the jury is still out ...); etc.

It sounds like carbon fibre bottles (i.e. stakos) are far more at risk from igniting / exploding (and blowing the reg out) due to filling to fast. Therefore lets stop using them at least until all sites have had a chance to ensure their rigs are filling at a rate that all bottles can handle.

I remember the debate when we moved from Co2 to 3000psi compressed air, with people questioning how safe it was. I cannot believe that we now have a situation with a new make of bottle almost regularly exploding and some people actually seem to think this is an acceptable hazzard of the game !!! It is not (at least in my opinion it should not be).

You're right something was very very wrong. Sounds to me like it's more to do with flash filling than the stakos them selves. So how is banning stakos going to solve the problem when ANY bottle type can explode from a flash fill?

 

[Fisz]

I decided to give Stako a call tomorrow to inform them about this incident. If they need more information, who should they get in touch with? Was H-Pac on-site? I will pass on to them all the information I get, so if someone was there (Nige?, Russ?) and thinks he could contribute, please PM me with your contact info to pass on to the Stako guys.

 

[FirebirD]

So at what point did the bottle fail, oh I see, it didn't.

It must also be Stako's fault the stock market is hurting


Russ

ye the bottle was fine, was the reg sadly


Just realised I double posted, sorry about that haha

My understanding is quite limited in the area but i do know this... to cause an explosion you need 3 elements, a carbon based product (rust,swarf,oil etc) heat source (high flow rate) and oxygen ( at 60psi the equivelent fraction of oxygen in air is the equivelent to 100% pure oxygen!!) oxygen is very flamable. i worked out a safe fill rate should be approx 220-330 l/m this should take approx 1.5 mins for a 1.1 litre cylinder (slow but safe). if we need more fill points to solve the issue i would rather have more slow fill points than fewer flash fill unsafe ones.

if say at the p.a. or the millennium, in a player staging tent there were 5 fill points you still have time to turn around not a lot.... but in the quest for safety this could be 2 1/2 mins or 3 min turn around time.....

from reading the thread it sounds like no one at the event would have put oil onto a fill nipple, but consider this....... how many ballers have rusty fill nipples? i've seen about 10 in the last 2 weeks !! combined with a high flow rate, possible oil vapor coming from the compressor and high partial pressure of oxygen, could quite easily amount to the outcome of the last series of explosions.

i found out that stako make big carbon fiber cylinders for fuel tanks in vehicles that contain compressed natural gas and liquid propane gas both highly flammable, but they are not having them explode! i really don't believe the issue is with any of the cylinders or the reg's, but all to do with the lack of knowledge in operating high pressure air, and to have a better understanding of what we are dealing with, even if only filing a paintball cylinder....

other things i think that could, as a combination of, contribute to failures and explosions at hpa stations are the use of corrodible pipe fittings (non stainless steel(even these need periodic cleaning)), poor,infrequent or lack of compressor service's and as mentioned fast flow rates.... and with all of this you have the potential of a 3000 psi rated bottle or reg being filled to 4500 psi and people using oil on rusty fill nipples (why aren't these stainless steel???)

i'm no expert in hpa but as a diver for the last 12 years i know that you need (i've got some) certification or qualification to handle, mix or blend high pressure gases. the paintball industry needs to be educated in the same way. i might be wrong.... but i reckon if we all have a better understanding of hpa surely there will be fewer incidents.

if there was a reasonably priced high pressure air course for paintballers and sites would you attend one?

nige glad to see your still alive mate !!

I know its a lame job, but prehaps they have more fill stations and have someone fill it for you, slower fills, more of them, but a trained proffessional but they inspect your bottle too, and if they deep it unfit, they dont fill it, therefore causing less accidents maybe?
Yeah I know it'd be a boring job, standing there filling peoples bottles, but even so, might help?

 

[FirebirD]

double post >.<

 

[spangley_special]

I know its a lame job, but prehaps they have more fill stations and have someone fill it for you, slower fills, more of them, but a trained proffessional but they inspect your bottle too, and if they deep it unfit, they dont fill it, therefore causing less accidents maybe?
Yeah I know it'd be a boring job, standing there filling peoples bottles, but even so, might help?

cost to event organisers is gonna be high surely?

you'd need at least two or three per pitt, so we are talking 5-6 members of qualified staff per field.

...would have thought lowering the flow rate on all your fill stations would suffice

 

[Lucky]

i know stakos were available at campaign cup with tommahawk regs, know absolutley nothing about tommahawk regs tho

They were also available from the same stand "without" any reg, so basically anything could be fitted to a stako.

First off i'm glad that Nige and everyone in his immediate area were ok..."THAT's the main thing"
But now WE as a community need to decide what to do, Everyone seems to just jump up and shout BAN BAN BAN, for all the wrong reasons.

1: At this event was there a clearly displayed filling rules regs and procedures on the fill station?
2: Was there a trained operator overviewing the fill station usage?
3: Was the fill station away from the general player contingent?
4: Was the fill station surrounded by a blast cage or blast resistant catch netting?
5: Was the fill station set at a reduced fill rate (100psi/sec), and incapable of exceeding this rate?
6: Were all bottles checked for damage and validity by scrutineers?

I can almost guarantee that the answer to most of the above questions is no!
If the usage and filling procedures at the average site were looked at by the health and safety executive, the the use of HPA would be banned immediately not just with stako's but an immediate and total ban on everything.

That is what WE as a community must consider, because if we were reading Nige's obituary here then that's what we'd be facing.
Locally to me a tyre fitter was killed filling a tyre to just 120psi, that was a trained operator who took a short cut and died because of it. What short cut?
He didn't bother putting it in an inflation cage? 2 years on and the inquest is only finally coming to closure.
I am fully trained and I work with high pressure systems on a daily basis and know the risks and dangers, yet anyone can turn up at a paintball event and flash fill to 4500psi? This point has completely mystified me over the years as has the fact that the fill rigs are not restricted to stop flash filling. I'm affraid that before you make any accusations about banning any products, you must first and foremostly "Blame the organisers and HPA suppliers!
It's a harsh statement but the general public are idiots and as a result should have fail safe precautions in place to stop themselves blowing anyone up.
If "ALL" bottles were filled correctly in each of these instances, who can prove to me that there would still have been an incident? You can part fill a bottle with petrol and if you fill slowly enough it simply will not generate enough heat to explode, so in all of these so called Stako incidents, "Who's to blame" The manufacturer or the user? Stako's are only more susceptible to failure because of lightweight design but any bottle can and should fail when subjected to flash filling, just because your composite bottle hasn't failed "yet", doesn't make it ok
Are Ferrari to blame for making a fast lightweight car if some twat kills a group of school children by speeding in one?

 

[onasilverbike]

can anyone fix my EGO for me

Send a pm to Nicky T on this forum mate, I think he works for Planet or something, I expect that he'll be able to point you to a qualified Ego tech in your area

 

[Russell Smith]

My understanding is quite limited in the area but i do know this... to cause an explosion you need 3 elements, a carbon based product (rust,swarf,oil etc) heat source (high flow rate) and oxygen ( at 60psi the equivelent fraction of oxygen in air is the equivelent to 100% pure oxygen!!) oxygen is very flamable. i worked out a safe fill rate should be approx 220-330 l/m this should take approx 1.5 mins for a 1.1 litre cylinder (slow but safe). if we need more fill points to solve the issue i would rather have more slow fill points than fewer flash fill unsafe ones.

if say at the p.a. or the millennium, in a player staging tent there were 5 fill points you still have time to turn around not a lot.... but in the quest for safety this could be 2 1/2 mins or 3 min turn around time.....

if there was a reasonably priced high pressure air course for paintballers and sites would you attend one?

nige glad to see your still alive mate !!

You would not need that amount of time as players would still have an quantity of air in their tanks and only top up.

And the Air course is already available from the UKPSF.


Russ

 

[Clompy]

Hi guys
Im home now and feel ok in myself. Got some minor burns to my hands, very bloodshot eyes, my wrist feels like I have fallen on it and bent it back on its self (hurt like hell to type) grazed retina in my left eye and other cuts and bruises.
The tank was a Stako with the standard Pro-Toyz reg. The only difference it had was a airbourne filtered fill nipple that Kitch put on for me so it wasnt touched anyone that didnt know what they are doing. The reg was NOT loctited in and as far as I know all in good order, there was no way I flash filled it as I do warn others of the dangers of doing this. In NO WAY am I pointing fingers at anyone else or anyone at the freekz site.
Basically it was a freak accident, someone may of used oil before I went up but then we could all say things to blame others or even myself.
This willbe investigated by people who know a lot more than me as Iknow all you guys are not happy. I am just glad that no-one else was hurt. I would always wish it on myself before others.
Clompy, I am sorry for putting the ****s up you mate and hope you are ok.
I would like to thank everyone who was there, I cant name names as I was a bit out of it. I do remember shouting at Bluey to leave me alone and everyone else to chill out. I also remember my team mates and Richard (Herman) being there and helping. if I have forgotten anyone I am sorry.
I am also thankfull to all you guys for your kind words, I promise I wont ever moan the forums are quiet again.
Thanks to everyone, I did have a few thoughts in the hospital about calling it a day but I am sure I will be still hanging around.
we can point the fingers at as many people we lie and speculate about this that and the other but at the end of the day no one was seriously hurt and in the end it was only me
Thanks again guys
Nige
Ps, the guy who asked about the blanket, it is in my car as I had no shirt when I left the hospital. Let me know where to send it and I will
PPs. can anyone fix my EGO for me

Don't worry about me fella, I'm glad you're still in the land of the living mate. All I remember was seeing a white plume of air venting from the lever then I think I must of just turned away. Blew the gun out of me hand though!. Also got a good spray from your paint as well, not sure whether you can count it as a hit though

Get better soon mate

J