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Bottle Blows Up

H

H_PAC

Member
Jan 27, 2004
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reply to Lucky

The main criteria is not to exceed the design temperature on carbon cylinders so fill rigs should have restrictors to limit flow, been availiable for years and i sell them, been fitted to my rigs from day one.
Its a bit early to say hang the HPA company untill you are sure of the cause i think, guys used to die in fitting tyres when they used split rims, get your facts right, mainly plant and forkfilt tyres now have split rims.I have a haulage company so know a little bit.
I would concentrate on inspecting the cylinder and reg and finding where the combustiable material came from, this sport is so full of experts on compressed air and legalitys im surprissed you have time to play, let the experts investigate and in the mean time dont stir up a hornets nest otherwise you may be looking for another hobby.
You think im joking i am being prosecuted because my workshop radio was audible off my premises, they say i need a entertainment licence and if its investigated by a simular jobs worth like ive got you dont want to give him any ammo to end your sport, if it is the air suppliers fault then he deserves whats coming to him but be sure as a loss of earnings claim or slander will empty your piggy bank quicker than your paint bill.


if anybody wishes to view our test results they will be at the next UK Masters event.


Trev
 
J

Jeff Abbott - Dye

Guest
They may have passed all the tests and they may be good tanks but are they good for paintball?

As professionals, have you seen this type of failure in any other tanks?

Are Stakko tanks designed well for the way we are using them?

I can't believe that people are defending a product that clearly is not working and hurting people.

Why use them?
Why take the risk?

keka


H_PAC said:
Hi Guys,
first of all we are glad nobody was seriously injured, as being the first Company to bring self fill to the paintball world approx 8 years ago and supplying air to both Milleniums and domestic events and having supplied an estimated 2.5 million fills over the years with only one incident in which we found the can of oil that was used to lubricate the reg we have some knowledge and have carried out tests that even the cylinder manufactures havent done.
First of all this is 99% certain to be a cylinder fire given the details posted, to caused a fire you need 3 things, something to burn ie oil vapour, oil residue, grease etc,
2nd you need ignition, in this case compressing oil as air pressure within cylinder causes a temperature rise, simple physics look how a diesel engine works on the same principal,
3rd you need oxygen, you put 20-22% o2 (normal air into you cylinders)
if any element is missing it will not burn,
Stako cylinders have passed the stringent TUV approval tests and i have a copy of their results in my office, whilst they have there own issues i feel they should not be blamed as yet untill they are found to be faulty.
Did you realise that on a stako it is marked with the standard of air to be used to fill it, its breathing air standard, how many air suppliers test there air, we do as our compressors are also used in the aerospace and diving industry and a certificate of purity is carried to every event along with public insurance details.
Anybody who has played a Millenium over the last few years would have had to sign a confirmation sheet stating that they understand the principal of using high pressure air and the dangers before there cylinder is checked to be correct standard and within its test date prior to being allowed to fill.
It sounds like the cylinder did not fail but the reg was burnt out as in the previous incidents, both reg and cylinder are probaly to the correct standards but were never designed to withstand the instant pressure increases seen in a internal fire situation so something had to give.
We were accused by a manufacturer of flash filling with the fill rigs suppied by Bauer a couple of years ago so we decided to prove our equipment was not to blame and got 10k worth of data logging equipment and proceeded to carry out tests. we filled a 1.1 from empty to 4500 in 15 seconds with no inline reg ir fill nipple to impede the flow and fille 2000-4500 every 5 minutes to try and achieve a shell temperature above whats stated by the leading manufacturers (stako temperature is lower than everbody elses 50 deg C ) the maximum temp we had was 42 deg C peak on initial fill, it proved the fill rigs we use fill within recommended temperatures,
We have the reports to back our findings, what im saying is there are rigs that can flash fill and you wouldnt even realise, at the end of the day we need to ascertain where the combustiable material came from, im sure the DFT and HSE will carry out there tests, what we all need to do is calm down and wait for the results, air suppiers carry out there checks and supply air to the correct standard via safe fill stations to eliminate any possibility of flash fills and contamination and player to maitain there kit and torque the regs up to correct setting when fitting (i have never seen this done outside our test house except at Delta Force) overtightening can cause failure between neck and liner on stakos for instance, why not fit a new fill nipple instead of fileing the bures off and complaining when the fill whip comes off.
In this day and age of no win no fee claim policy surely you should have liability insurance to cover little johnny when he gets hurt from your cylinder are reg failure whilst standing next to you, the UKPSF can supply this for a small fee and your covered, my insurance as a supplier covers up to the end of the fill whip and if you fill you are liable from there onwards, i know my rigs are as safe as possible and have spent many thousands of pounds making them so.
Believe me i want our sport to grow but safely and we all need to increase our awareness if the dangers of the equipment we use.
I have people ring me to say they have played at events and never had a cylinder check and couldnt find an operator when they have a problem so air suppliers need to get there act together as well and if you the players dont like what you are getting for your money complain and the organiser will have to supply what you want, on the other hand take responsabilty for your own kit and ensure you have the relevant training and knowledge to work on it.
Ive had enough of moaning, did you realise the explosive energy in a failing 1.1 was equivelant to 1/2 kilo of semtex and a cylinder is designed to fragment into no more than 3 pieces to pass design tests, we have taken stackos to 500 bar on test.
Play safe.

regards

Trevor

H-PAC Services Ltd

Insist on the best in the business, you only have one life.
Click to expand...
 
B

BORIS

Member
Apr 3, 2002
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The bottle may look ok but i bet you the plastic liner inside is what caught fire and caused the accident the plastic liner would have been the fuel for the oxygen to burn with, Then with enough heat alluminium will also catch fire as long as there is oxygem.
Probable sequence of events would be
1 oil diesels
2 plastic catches fire inside bottle
3 presure inside bottle rises very quickly
4 burst disk ruptures causing the flame to now rush through the reg melting and causing the alloy to also catch fire (telltale sign would be a bright flash when it happens.)
This could be the reason it only happens with stacko bottles as even with botles with an alloy liner you will get dieseling but the all alloy liner will be able to Dissipate the heat.
This has happened 3 times now all with the same make of bottles how many more times does it have to happen before we relalise the design could be flawed and do somthimg about it as these bottles get older we could start seeing more and more of this .
 
Lump

Lump

one case one kill
Sep 20, 2004
12,725
874
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in the ABYSS
just out of interest who has he bottle etc ? kitch will you be contacting HSE ? just wondering the process from here
 
J

Jeff Abbott - Dye

Guest
BORIS said:
The bottle may look ok but i bet you the plastic liner inside is what caught fire and caused the accident the plastic liner would have been the fuel for the oxygen to burn with, Then with enough heat alluminium will also catch fire as long as there is oxygem.
Probable sequence of events would be
1 oil diesels
2 plastic catches fire inside bottle
3 presure inside bottle rises very quickly
4 burst disk ruptures causing the flame to now rush through the reg melting and causing the alloy to also catch fire (telltale sign would be a bright flash when it happens.)
This could be the reason it only happens with stacko bottles as even with botles with an alloy liner you will get dieseling but the all alloy liner will be able to Dissipate the heat.
This has happened 3 times now all with the same make of bottles how many more times does it have to happen before we realise the design could be flawed and do something about it as these bottles get older we could start seeing more and more of this .
Click to expand...

You missed a step.
Where did the oil come from?

I think...

1. Plastic liner heats up and starts to break down over time. (Plastic is oil based)

2. Component of plastic liner "diesels"

The rest is as per your post.

keka
 
L

Lucky_Tech

Platinum Member
Aug 24, 2006
306
44
38
www.luckyeurope.co.uk
H_PAC said:
The main criteria is not to exceed the design temperature on carbon cylinders so fill rigs should have restrictors to limit flow, been availiable for years and i sell them, been fitted to my rigs from day one.
Its a bit early to say hang the HPA company untill you are sure of the cause i think, guys used to die in fitting tyres when they used split rims, get your facts right, mainly plant and forkfilt tyres now have split rims.I have a haulage company so know a little bit.
I would concentrate on inspecting the cylinder and reg and finding where the combustiable material came from, this sport is so full of experts on compressed air and legalitys im surprissed you have time to play, let the experts investigate and in the mean time dont stir up a hornets nest otherwise you may be looking for another hobby.
You think im joking i am being prosecuted because my workshop radio was audible off my premises, they say i need a entertainment licence and if its investigated by a simular jobs worth like ive got you dont want to give him any ammo to end your sport, if it is the air suppliers fault then he deserves whats coming to him but be sure as a loss of earnings claim or slander will empty your piggy bank quicker than your paint bill.


if anybody wishes to view our test results they will be at the next UK Masters event.


Trev
Click to expand...
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