R
raehl
Guest
Tyger, tyger, tyger....
You used a hitler reference. You lose the argument by disqualification.
- Chris
You used a hitler reference. You lose the argument by disqualification.
- Chris
WORLD CUP news! Avalanche caught cheating!
- Thread starter Tyger
- Start date
Tyger !
First of all, Salm would have to know a few facts before teh game began. I'm willing to grant that he had access to the paint that his team used, so the colors would remain the same, but after that, it gets harder.
Now, he would have to know what time to be in position. Considering that, according to reports, Salm was too sick to play paintball, what was he doing out there to begin with? Ok, so perhaps he wasn't "Back at the hotel", but if you're too sick to play (NOT INJURED, but sick), then you shouldn't be there.
He had to set up pn the GZ side of the field. According to paintball.com, the shots were from behind.
Next is the pre-meditated nature of this. HE wore all black. No mention of a black jersey, but the clothing he wore was all black. This is repeated time and time again. This tells me that the act was premeditated becasue he had to dress up for it. The clothing was either purchased at cup or (more than likely) brought to he site by Salm or the team. The black gun I'll also conceed, only because if they're as common as I'm led to believe then there's nothing special about that.
Logistically, planning something like this alone would be extremely difficult. Alone, he would have to find out which field the game was on, which side GZ was on, get paint from the Avalanche pile, vanish without a trace, swing totally around the tournament complex unseen, sprint through the woods to the NPS field, set up on the correct side of the field, and start plinking. Granted, he could do it, but he chance that NOBODY on Avalance would know?
There's also still a quesion of motive. Salm was "brought back, tearful, to face judgement." according to PGI. To me, this does not show remorse as much as being upset of being caught. Reports also say that he only said to Avalanche "I'm sorry". Now this can go two ways. The first is the party line that he acted alone and was now remorseful.
The other way, and the one that I think is more likely, is this scenario. Avalanche wanted some help making it through to the finals. Teh team captain (a fact that's been buried by MANY posters here), JEREMY SALM, sits himself saying he's too sick to play. With some help from his team (Who back up the play by saying he's too sick to play), he sets up on the other side of the field, in the wood line. His teammates come in by covering his absence from the field with excuses and lies. They also can set him up by knowing a few facts, like what side he will weaken and how soon he will begin to do the deed. In theory, it's a good plan. The problem was that he got caught.
Now upset, and knowing full well what's going to happen to him, he's tear stricken knowing hat he's about to be punished. He says he's sorry to his team, not becasue he's remorseful for what he's done, but becasue he's been caught, and the team is now going to face retrobution.
To me, this is the more likely scenario.
Two other things. Chris : I used a Hitler refrence as an extreme way to get a knee-jerk reaction. I could just as easily said "Kennedy" or "King Richard", yes, but I have my motives.
and Johan, VERY mature. Yeah, that'll shut me up but good.
And, to everyone, if you want to buy into the party line withoutquestioning it, go ahead. But it's one of the reasons paintball will not become a recognised, or even serious, sport. Unless an investigation is conducted, or at least the truly guilty come out, then paintball will remain in the realm of "WWF" as far as sports events goes.
Keep in mind that in 1919 or so, the world series in baseball was thrown too. The guilty, and a few innocents, were punished. At least they held hearings, and they listened and tried to figure out what really happened. In paintball, it seems, all a player has to do is say "It was all me." and the universe will nod and say "Oh, yes, we believe you."
Life does not exist in a vaccum.
-Tyger
Allright, again.
First of all, Salm would have to know a few facts before teh game began. I'm willing to grant that he had access to the paint that his team used, so the colors would remain the same, but after that, it gets harder.
Now, he would have to know what time to be in position. Considering that, according to reports, Salm was too sick to play paintball, what was he doing out there to begin with? Ok, so perhaps he wasn't "Back at the hotel", but if you're too sick to play (NOT INJURED, but sick), then you shouldn't be there.
He had to set up pn the GZ side of the field. According to paintball.com, the shots were from behind.
So Salm had to be BEHIND GZ. This means he had to know which side to set up on. 50/50 shot, granted.
Next is the pre-meditated nature of this. HE wore all black. No mention of a black jersey, but the clothing he wore was all black. This is repeated time and time again. This tells me that the act was premeditated becasue he had to dress up for it. The clothing was either purchased at cup or (more than likely) brought to he site by Salm or the team. The black gun I'll also conceed, only because if they're as common as I'm led to believe then there's nothing special about that.
Logistically, planning something like this alone would be extremely difficult. Alone, he would have to find out which field the game was on, which side GZ was on, get paint from the Avalanche pile, vanish without a trace, swing totally around the tournament complex unseen, sprint through the woods to the NPS field, set up on the correct side of the field, and start plinking. Granted, he could do it, but he chance that NOBODY on Avalance would know?
There's also still a quesion of motive. Salm was "brought back, tearful, to face judgement." according to PGI. To me, this does not show remorse as much as being upset of being caught. Reports also say that he only said to Avalanche "I'm sorry". Now this can go two ways. The first is the party line that he acted alone and was now remorseful.
The other way, and the one that I think is more likely, is this scenario. Avalanche wanted some help making it through to the finals. Teh team captain (a fact that's been buried by MANY posters here), JEREMY SALM, sits himself saying he's too sick to play. With some help from his team (Who back up the play by saying he's too sick to play), he sets up on the other side of the field, in the wood line. His teammates come in by covering his absence from the field with excuses and lies. They also can set him up by knowing a few facts, like what side he will weaken and how soon he will begin to do the deed. In theory, it's a good plan. The problem was that he got caught.
Now upset, and knowing full well what's going to happen to him, he's tear stricken knowing hat he's about to be punished. He says he's sorry to his team, not becasue he's remorseful for what he's done, but becasue he's been caught, and the team is now going to face retrobution.
To me, this is the more likely scenario.
Two other things. Chris : I used a Hitler refrence as an extreme way to get a knee-jerk reaction. I could just as easily said "Kennedy" or "King Richard", yes, but I have my motives.
and Johan, VERY mature. Yeah, that'll shut me up but good.
And, to everyone, if you want to buy into the party line withoutquestioning it, go ahead. But it's one of the reasons paintball will not become a recognised, or even serious, sport. Unless an investigation is conducted, or at least the truly guilty come out, then paintball will remain in the realm of "WWF" as far as sports events goes.
Keep in mind that in 1919 or so, the world series in baseball was thrown too. The guilty, and a few innocents, were punished. At least they held hearings, and they listened and tried to figure out what really happened. In paintball, it seems, all a player has to do is say "It was all me." and the universe will nod and say "Oh, yes, we believe you."
Life does not exist in a vaccum.
-Tyger
Contrary to early reports, Salm wasn't behind the play - he wasn't shooting them in the back. But blimey, this might change again yet!
It is hard to believe that someone would take on such a role on his own, without discussing it with the team or team members or friends or whoever.... it is hard to believe, but I don't know the geezer from adam, so perhaps that's part of his make-up.
It sticks in my mind that if you are mad enough to do this kinda thing, are you also calculating enough not to boast about it. I don't know.
It would have kinda been interesting if he'd gotten away with it. What would have happened in the aftermath? two weeks later at a team meeting 'you never guess what I did?' I wonder what the response would have been.
I kinda see Tyger's points , but unfortunately mate, you've got yourself a rep. and I think that's working against you on this one.
It is hard to believe that someone would take on such a role on his own, without discussing it with the team or team members or friends or whoever.... it is hard to believe, but I don't know the geezer from adam, so perhaps that's part of his make-up.
It sticks in my mind that if you are mad enough to do this kinda thing, are you also calculating enough not to boast about it. I don't know.
It would have kinda been interesting if he'd gotten away with it. What would have happened in the aftermath? two weeks later at a team meeting 'you never guess what I did?' I wonder what the response would have been.
I kinda see Tyger's points , but unfortunately mate, you've got yourself a rep. and I think that's working against you on this one.
"BLEET!"
Seems to be the usual response. See, I can accuse you of having he same agenda of furthering tournament paintball, no matter how tarnished the image gets. Seems to me that you will defend this to the death, becasue it threatens 'tournament paintball'.
Wah.
When you go on your high-horse about banning camouflage, you said it made paintball look less professional when "Rambo wannabees" wore camo. Well, how unprofessional is it whan a tournament team feels the need to send an 11th man into the woods next to the field to eliminate their players for them?
See, you're coming across as someone who wants to discredit me at any cost, hoping to whatever diety will listen that it doesn't stick. Well, guess what. I'm going on facts and reported information, something that 95% of the other posts on other boards / forums have NOT done. I'm being reasonable, and not calling for Salms head on a spit as others have done. I'm not saying that this should be the death of organised tournament play, as others have.
I am saying that the tournament system is flawed. I am saying that an investigation NEEDS TO BE DONE. I am saying that this WILL HAPPEN AGAIN as long as the action is rewarded with 'slap on the wrist' punishments. Salm was the team captain for crimeny's sake, the "Black Sox" were banned form baseball for LIFE after tehy threw the series.
If you're going to blindly follow the crowd and accept that "This happens" and follow the party line that "Well, Salm said he acted alone so we'll believe him and not punish the team" then don't have to audacity to be shocked when a major company tells paintall that they need to become a real sport before they come back for sponsor dollars.
And before you lash back, it's already happened. I talked to a tournamnt organiser who was courting a major beer distributor. The distributor told him "Look, paintball has so much cheating in it, we don't want to be associated with that. Clean it up and come back."
Contrary to popular belief, (or, more correctly, contrary to NPPL bias...) I have the future in mind. Am I the only guy who can think 20 years into the future?
-Tyger
Seems to be the usual response. See, I can accuse you of having he same agenda of furthering tournament paintball, no matter how tarnished the image gets. Seems to me that you will defend this to the death, becasue it threatens 'tournament paintball'.
Wah.
When you go on your high-horse about banning camouflage, you said it made paintball look less professional when "Rambo wannabees" wore camo. Well, how unprofessional is it whan a tournament team feels the need to send an 11th man into the woods next to the field to eliminate their players for them?
Ok then, what do you want? I've tried giving you the evidence, as reported by LEGITIMATE SOURCES. I've tried giving you the thwories backed up with solid information. I've even tried being nice about it. But it seems to me that you're fighting this on the LONE FACT that "Tyger is the guy with the theory." You don't like me, fine. Nobody else does neither.
See, you're coming across as someone who wants to discredit me at any cost, hoping to whatever diety will listen that it doesn't stick. Well, guess what. I'm going on facts and reported information, something that 95% of the other posts on other boards / forums have NOT done. I'm being reasonable, and not calling for Salms head on a spit as others have done. I'm not saying that this should be the death of organised tournament play, as others have.
I am saying that the tournament system is flawed. I am saying that an investigation NEEDS TO BE DONE. I am saying that this WILL HAPPEN AGAIN as long as the action is rewarded with 'slap on the wrist' punishments. Salm was the team captain for crimeny's sake, the "Black Sox" were banned form baseball for LIFE after tehy threw the series.
If you're going to blindly follow the crowd and accept that "This happens" and follow the party line that "Well, Salm said he acted alone so we'll believe him and not punish the team" then don't have to audacity to be shocked when a major company tells paintall that they need to become a real sport before they come back for sponsor dollars.
And before you lash back, it's already happened. I talked to a tournamnt organiser who was courting a major beer distributor. The distributor told him "Look, paintball has so much cheating in it, we don't want to be associated with that. Clean it up and come back."
Contrary to popular belief, (or, more correctly, contrary to NPPL bias...) I have the future in mind. Am I the only guy who can think 20 years into the future?
-Tyger
Tyger,
I was initially on your side in this as you seemed to be asking questions as to the reasons and motivations.
Then it suddenly turned form legitimate questions into statements of supposed intent based on infomation gathered from sources that were not exactly exhaustive as to their details, nor are they without possible agenda themselves.
For EVERY SINGLE point you have made in your theory that Salm was acting in cahoots with 'lanche - there is an equally valid/plausible/simple explanation that says he acted alone.
I agree that investigation needs to be done but NOT to prove that 'lanche were in on it but that WE (the masses) SIMPLY DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED !!!
Ask questions to get answers and expand your knowledge, but please please quit with asking questions that you already think you know the answers too and disregarding the response if it doesn't fit.
I was initially on your side in this as you seemed to be asking questions as to the reasons and motivations.
Then it suddenly turned form legitimate questions into statements of supposed intent based on infomation gathered from sources that were not exactly exhaustive as to their details, nor are they without possible agenda themselves.
For EVERY SINGLE point you have made in your theory that Salm was acting in cahoots with 'lanche - there is an equally valid/plausible/simple explanation that says he acted alone.
I agree that investigation needs to be done but NOT to prove that 'lanche were in on it but that WE (the masses) SIMPLY DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED !!!
Ask questions to get answers and expand your knowledge, but please please quit with asking questions that you already think you know the answers too and disregarding the response if it doesn't fit.
Very true stuff. Yes, I can see it can go either way, but there just seems to be too much 'instant evidence'. Salm was "mentaly Unstable" according to Chloe, and a whole lot of other things that were suddenly brought to light. It screamed of scapegoating. And sure, I can also use existing evidence to 'prove' anything any way I want to. That's why there's a 'debate club' in high schools. But the facts remain the facts, and even if I can't prove intent, I can prove that the probability of pulling off a solo stunt like this is low WITHOUT any outside help / knowledge.
And investigation needs to be done to prove one way or the other what did or did not happen. Until then, all that CAN be done by us players is infrence on what little facts have been given to us. And since my questions are answered with accusations and counter accusations, I'm obviously only going to get answeres by drawing conclusions on what I can gather. It works for the police, it can work for me.
oh, Rancid, I know. I find it amazing that since I'm the only guy who has the balls to say the things that everyone else says off the record, I get the rep. However, I call somoen one teh phone and get more than my sahre of information, as long as I don't repeat my source. Double standard, nothing unsuall there in paintball. "Oh yeah, team "q" cheats like *******s. But I'm not going to say anything publicly becasue everyone esle does it too." Ok, wh's everyone else? "You know, everyone." So why don't you say something? "It's not worth it." or "I play with them all the time" or so on. The system needs changing, or at least a swift kick in the groin.
-Tyger
Heh...You know, I finally met Tyger at the Shatner game this year. Despite the thrashing he gets from the tournement community, I like the guy. He's got no special reason to like me, or care what I think, yet he and I spoke rationally and respectfully.
As for this situation, I honestly don't think the whole truth will ever come to light. Whatever happened, and I believe Tyger's and the other theories expressed here have merit, I believe that the whole thing will eventually blow over and be forgotten. I think that's tragic, because as Tyger points out, it DOES indicate a problem with the system, but apparently nobody is interested in fixing it just yet. Whatever the motivations, the fact that the incident happened is bad for the sport.
Honestly, I believe this year's World Cup to be an improvement over last year's, despite this incident with Salm and whoever may or may not have assisted him. Progress *was* made in the quality of the experience, and I hope that the sport can deal with this issue and whatever else the silly season brings.
As for this situation, I honestly don't think the whole truth will ever come to light. Whatever happened, and I believe Tyger's and the other theories expressed here have merit, I believe that the whole thing will eventually blow over and be forgotten. I think that's tragic, because as Tyger points out, it DOES indicate a problem with the system, but apparently nobody is interested in fixing it just yet. Whatever the motivations, the fact that the incident happened is bad for the sport.
Honestly, I believe this year's World Cup to be an improvement over last year's, despite this incident with Salm and whoever may or may not have assisted him. Progress *was* made in the quality of the experience, and I hope that the sport can deal with this issue and whatever else the silly season brings.
Elitist? How about right? Discerning might be another word for it too, while you're at it.
No, it's more like a deaf person commenting on a symphony performance.
Certainly people are entitled to opinion based on analysis. After all, explaination and sifting through the evidence to pick out the relevence of information and discern fact from farce is crucial, especially in cases such as this. However, let's not confuse the chicken with the breading. In reaching conclusions and then comparing them with the reality of an event that happened, it's not a matter of chi square analysis where there are degrees of freedom within which your results can vary (sometimes by 100% or more) and still be right.
In less technical terms, it's like an instrument being either in or out of tune. It's not wrong by measure but right by difference of opinion. It's either in tune or it's wrong and it's annoying to continue to hear it.
Regardless of which side of the boundary line you come down on
I would have thought everyone would agree with the notion that pball as a sport must, like other sports, police itself as scrupulously as possible and what a large part of this situation seems to demonstrate to me is that those with the position and power to do so aren't prepared or equipped to do so--yet.
Tyg's points about the state of pball and what seems to be going on (or not going on) are legitimate whether you agree with his theories or not.
Nick--Do you have the same opinion of Bruno's famous crawl in Boston? (Just to name another not dissimilar event)
Chris--no way was this Cup an improvement on last year solely on the basis of the incomprehensibly poor reffing. At this stage of the game the events are put on for the players and when the bare essential standards can't be maintained something is wrong.
(I am discounting college X-ball as it really had nothing to do with World Cup comp except it was in the same pasture.)
I would have thought everyone would agree with the notion that pball as a sport must, like other sports, police itself as scrupulously as possible and what a large part of this situation seems to demonstrate to me is that those with the position and power to do so aren't prepared or equipped to do so--yet.
Tyg's points about the state of pball and what seems to be going on (or not going on) are legitimate whether you agree with his theories or not.
Nick--Do you have the same opinion of Bruno's famous crawl in Boston? (Just to name another not dissimilar event)
Chris--no way was this Cup an improvement on last year solely on the basis of the incomprehensibly poor reffing. At this stage of the game the events are put on for the players and when the bare essential standards can't be maintained something is wrong.
(I am discounting college X-ball as it really had nothing to do with World Cup comp except it was in the same pasture.)