Time to face the music and dance Mark and Headrock

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by headrock6
Glad to hear your not a movie historian..Personally I didnt enjoy Black Hawk Down all that much..If I wanted to see 2 and a half hours of shooting I would have rented King Of New York

King of New York...now that was a fun movie. Ever watched BlackHawk Down with the veteran's commentary on? Funny! You constantly hear them go "That never happened", or "Hey, I wasn't there"...

Moving on from why the war was fought, to the present time, with the war over and done with (well, sort of), I'm afraid that 'the western world' will have bitten off more than they can chew. A year before they have their own constitution? Jeez! No way the Iraqi people are gonna accept the presence of an outsider for that long. You must have noticed how they respond to the searches for weapons (not the fabled WMDs, but just regular small arms). A Dutch contingent has just moved in to assist in 'peace keeping', and seem to think that because they had no active part in the war, the Iraqis will love them and give them their daughters or whatever. Fact is, that as soon as they start joining in the house to house searching for weapons, they will be subjected to the same violenct attacks that are becoming more frequent. These people have a tradition of keeping arms in the house as a sign of manhood. It used to be a curved dagger, now it's an AK...
Problem is that these people are happy to be liberated, but they don't want you, me, us there anymore....

 

[duffistuta]

>>>So you believe all of this was according to their deception plans and they foresaw no one asking the questions you're asking now?

I believe they hoped to find WMD but were literally going in on a wing and a prayer - I also believe that Bush's tendency towards unilaterlism, Blair's belief in the power of spin, and the 5-second attention span of most people, meant that they weren't - and still aren't - too bothered about people asking questions, because the rhetoric has been changing to deflect those questions for the last two months.

Basically, they hoped, and maybe even believed, but they acted without any evidence. So yes, I believe we were duped.


>>>Iran and Syria are having pressure put on them,Saudi Arabia looks to be making some dramtic shifts in the way they promote terror,and the Palestinian/Israeli crisis is at least moving..

See, this is what worries me - Crom mentions the following "The US is now forging links with former Soviet republics of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan which are all run by Stalin like figures who are not in the least interested in democracy or basic human rights for their people."

And you come back with a list of Arab countries that the US is homing in on. Now I'm all for the draining of the swamp in theory, but if I was an Arab it'd look to me that the Middle East is the only swamp in the world - which it ain't.

Now whether I saw that as an attack on my religion by infidels, or my culture and race, or a geopolitical move in which power and oil played some part, doesn't really matter - what Arab duff would see is the might of the West focussing on my people to the exclusion of everyone else.

And as for Israel being sorted, mate, you know my thoughts on that one and I think you think the same...

 

[Mark790.06]

Originally posted by duffistuta
I believe they hoped to find WMD but were literally going in on a wing and a prayer - I also believe that Bush's tendency towards unilaterlism, Blair's belief in the power of spin, and the 5-second attention span of most people, meant that they weren't - and still aren't - too bothered about people asking questions, because the rhetoric has been changing to deflect those questions for the last two months.

Basically, they hoped, and maybe even believed, but they acted without any evidence. So yes, I believe we were duped.

IMO it doesn't wash. Bush had huge approval ratings prior to the build up in Qatar, he could have concentrated more on our economy, kept pressure on Blix's team as they were lead from one cleansed facility to another, and rode that rating to a second term, but he chose to risk a second term to start a war on an assumption; hoping to find WMD that he had no credible evidence of, but hoped to find nonetheless.

Originally posted by duffistuta
And you come back with a list of Arab countries that the US is homing in on. Now I'm all for the draining of the swamp in theory, but if I was an Arab it'd look to me that the Middle East is the only swamp in the world - which it ain't.

Now whether I saw that as an attack on my religion by infidels, or my culture and race, or a geopolitical move in which power and oil played some part, doesn't really matter - what Arab duff would see is the might of the West focussing on my people to the exclusion of everyone else.

I've maintained all along that this thinking already existed in the Arab world. That's how we got here in the first place. I also think that it's instigated by the corrupt governments of the middle east to deflect attention from themselves. If this problem existed prior to our "homing in" and resulted in the deaths of 3,000 people in a single day, worrying about the Arab's delusional, but on going feeling of persecution by the West is ancillary to the security of my country. On some level we need to address these issues, such as cut off all governments who continue to allow their state-owned media to spread anti-American/West propaganda. We also need to embrace with a passion what is happening in Iran right now.

 

[crom-dubh]

I've maintained all along that this thinking already existed in the Arab world. That's how we got here in the first place. I also think that it's instigated by the corrupt governments of the middle east to deflect attention from themselves. If this problem existed prior to our "homing in" and resulted in the deaths of 3,000 people in a single day, letting their reaction dictate our response is cowardess in my opinion.

I find it very strange that most of these corrupt governments are only in power because of support from the West.
Prior to the fall of the Soviet Union, we couldnt be any friendlier to the Arab world. And now since we have lost the Soviets as enemy number one, we have moved onto the Arabs. Its very hard to justify huge military budgets when there is no enemy.

The Arabs are always gonna be pissed at the US because of their involvement in Isreal, but thats been going on for decades, so why has it only been in the last few years that the US has been a target for Arab hate?

 

[crom-dubh]

IMO it doesn't wash. Bush had huge approval ratings prior to the build up in Qatar, he could have concentrated more on our economy, kept pressure on Blix's team as they were lead from one cleansed facility to another, and rode that rating to a second term, but he chose to risk a second term to start a war on an assumption; hoping to find WMD that he had no credible evidence of, but hoped to find nonetheless

Hmm maybe Bush went to war to deflect a ton of sh!t that was heading his way. 9/11 raised far too many questions about the security of US citizens. The invasion of Afghanistan did not yield Osama. And there were a ton of questions on the home front too.

Theres no better way to get the public off your back than by having a war. Everyone puts on the patriotic hat and anyone who questions the government is branded a commie or a Arab lover or a traitor.

 

[TJ Lambini]

>>>IMO it doesn't wash. Bush had huge approval ratings prior to tha build up in Qatar, he could have concentrated more on our economy, kept pressure on Blix's team as they were lead from one cleansed facility to another, and rode that rating to a second term, but he chose to risk a second term to start a war on an assumption; hoping to find WMD that he had no credible evidence of, but hoped to find nonetheless.///

Risk a second term??????!!!!!!!!!?????????

OK, two questions:
Were tha US/UK ever gonna lose that war?

Is a victorious president going to lose tha next election? Dude, we love a good war...

 

[TJ Lambini]

>>>I've maintained all along that this thinking already existed in the Arab world. That's how we got here in the first place. ///

I would say you are confusing extremists with tha vast majority of peaceful muslims. I would also say that tha US's unequivocal support of Israel has been a major factor. Now you may or mat not regard Israel as having committed terrorits atrocities, but I believe they have - as have the Palestinians - but one gets patted on the head and one doesn't...


>>>I also think that it's instigated by the corrupt governments of the middle east to deflect attention from themselves. ///

Dude, you could so spin that opposite way around...

 

[duffistuta]

Hey, septic, defend your own country like a good boy and stay out of it!

 

[TJ Lambini]

Just helping you guys out again...s'like WWII all over again.

 

[Mark790.06]

Originally posted by crom-dubh
I find it very strange that most of these corrupt governments are only in power because of support from the West.
Prior to the fall of the Soviet Union, we couldnt be any friendlier to the Arab world. And now since we have lost the Soviets as enemy number one, we have moved onto the Arabs. Its very hard to justify huge military budgets when there is no enemy.

The Arabs are always gonna be pissed at the US because of their involvement in Isreal, but thats been going on for decades, so why has it only been in the last few years that the US has been a target for Arab hate?

Damn! Crom-dubh, the fastest quoter in the west! I edited that response like 15 second after I posted it, but you still were able to grab it.

Any way in response to your response.

One of the reasons we were nicer than hell to the Arab countries is because the Soviets were their benefactor. That whole Mutually Assured Destruction thing kept us on a tight leash when it came to invasions of Israel, the occasional terrorist attack, and oil embargos. Now that there is no Soviet Union, the Arab's no longer have a nuclear umbrella to hide under, and this is one of the reasons for the WMD programs in many of these nations.