surely disciplining a whole team for a few idiots is'nt fair

[manike]

Hhmm I'm not so sure Pete,

In law if a group of people are conducting at act then they are all equal to the charges of the worst offence.

For instance if ten people were robbing a bank and one shot and murdered a guard they would all be up for Murder... or at least I'm fairly sure that's how it works. I know they are all commiting a criminal act, which would not be the case here in the first place but it's just an example of the use of peer pressure to solve problems rather than create them. It's designed for the very same reasons as Tony suggests, to stop the worst people by the use of peer pressure.

As someone said before, peer pressure is a strong thing. If we make it so that your peers would be penalised also then they would use that peer pressure to try and stop members of their team being jerks or cheating.

It would be a great way to stamp out cheating and bad play as nothing is worse than having your team pissed off at you. No-one would dare cheat and problem solved...

manike

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by manike
Hhmm I'm not so sure Pete,
In law if a group of people are conducting at act then they are all equal to the charges of the worst offence.
For instance if ten people were robbing a bank and one shot and murdered a guard they would all be up for Murder... or at least I'm fairly sure that's how it works. I know they are all commiting a criminal act, which would not be the case here in the first place but it's just an example of the use of peer pressure to solve problems rather than create them. It's designed for the very same reasons as Tony suggests, to stop the worst people by the use of peer pressure.
As someone said before, peer pressure is a strong thing. If we make it so that your peers would be penalised also then they would use that peer pressure to try and stop members of their team being jerks or cheating.
It would be a great way to stamp out cheating and bad play as nothing is worse than having your team pissed off at you. No-one would dare cheat and problem solved...
manike

Si, you have missed the point completely !!!!
The other people (Innocent as I would like to call them) were not party to , present at, or advocated any of the damage that was done. They were not even in the bank to use your metaphor, the only connection they had with what was done is that they played in the same paintball team.
There was no level of complicity either by intent or default !!!!!!

I hope now you can be sure !!!
Robbo

 

[Buddha 3]

Manike,

It wouldn't work that way in Holland.
Only the guy doing the killing would get chardged with murder in your scenario. The rest MAY get charged with being an accomplice, which would lead to a far lower sentence.

 

[TJ Lambini]

I thought that in Holland

they'd give you a spliff and some really excellent porn to watch and ask you nicely not to do it again...



peace

 

[Buddha 3]

Yep. That's our second most severe sentence. The only one to top that is the same but with a good spanking added.

 

[goose]

Buddha...

... one man's punishment is another man's pleasure.

 

[Tony]

Originally posted by Robbo


Tony, innocent peole can never be made to pay the penalties of the guilty, no matter which way you wanna wrap it up, this would fly in the face of all known tenets of law and justice in all civilised countries in all situations.
Think again young man !!!!
Robbo

Robbo, I understand what you're saying, but it's a case of guilt by association. You don't say this person cheated, you say that team has cheated. Don't you think that if a player is castigated by his own team, he's more likely to stop cheating? The only way I can see a team wanting to punish one of their team-mates is by enforcing somewhat draconian measures on them. I know it sucks, but what else do you do? They are stripped of a player for a game, and that's it. Doesn't work in my opinion.

Young man??? Long time since I've been called that!!!!

 

[manike]

Playing devil's advocate...

Tony, innocent peole can never be made to pay the penalties of the guilty, no matter which way you wanna wrap it up, this would fly in the face of all known tenets of law and justice in all civilised countries in all situations.

Pete we do this every single time we hand out a penalty in paintball so what you are saying is incontradiction to every way we penalise cheating in paintball.

Anyone in the team that was not present should not be punished obviously but... If they were on the team and there at the scene of the crime they take some responsibility.

If they were on the same team they would have influence, it's as if there are part of the gang and in the bank. If the people they are playing with cheat, they have options, move to another team or make those players leave. How much longer do you think people would cheat for? I reckon it would stop pretty darn quickly.

If I ran a team and someone by cheating risked my ability to play. I'd let them know damn well no cheating would be tolerated. If they cheated they would be walking the same day... I do know some people that have run teams that way also.

Yes some people that were completely innocent would be penalised but pretty quickly they would be in teams where it didn't happen and the guys that cheat would stop or not be able to play anywhere.

Again, problem solved. Sometimes harsh measures are required. There has been too much lax enforcement before which has allowed acts like this to happen and which makes people think they can get away with it.

It would need some strong basis to penalise a whole team on and there should be levels of punishment depending on how bad the offence, but we have all seen video proof of these things and that's exactly what a discipline group could rule on.

Pete,

The other people (Innocent as I would like to call them) were not party to , present at, or advocated any of the damage that was done. They were not even in the bank to use your metaphor, the only connection they had with what was done is that they played in the same paintball team.
There was no level of complicity either by intent or default !!!!!!

We already punish the innocent in paintball due to the fact we are punishing a team and NOT an individual in every single circumstance where we penalise.

If we 1 4 1 a player that player is not being punished as an individual. He has alrady left the field... we are punishing the remaining players by removing one of them from a game (who was innocent of course) and by putting the whole team at a disadvantage....

If we penalise a player for a hot gun, is that guy getting a penalty on his own? Nope it goes on the teams scoresheet and stops the TEAM qualifying. It's the team that is being penalised and not the player.

If anything I think this suggestion would be one of the only ways to penalise the PLAYER as pretty soon a compulsive cheat would be unwanted on any single team...

manike

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Tony
Robbo, I understand what you're saying, but it's a case of guilt by association. You don't say this person cheated, you say that team has cheated. Don't you think that if a player is castigated by his own team, he's more likely to stop cheating? The only way I can see a team wanting to punish one of their team-mates is by enforcing somewhat draconian measures on them. I know it sucks, but what else do you do? They are stripped of a player for a game, and that's it. Doesn't work in my opinion.
Young man??? Long time since I've been called that!!!!

I'm glad you undserstand what I'm saying cuz it's basically called 'Justice'.
Now as I see it, the players have been identified, thrown off the team and will be probably banned from playing the Millennium for a year.....and on top of that you wanna penalise the people who weren't even there, had nothing to do with it and no idea it was even going on ?
What sort of justice is that ?
You are talking about castigation by other team members when the answer is staring you in the face, throw the guilty ones off the team and let the Millennium board do their thing as well...End of !!!!
There is no guilt by association in this matter any more than if one of your team mates whacked me in the head and then I come looking for you...it just ain't right, ain't sensible and ain't fair.....end of !
Robbo

 

[manike]

Pete, I didn't know that we were talking about any specific team here.

The implication by the thread starter was that he wanted to keep it 'general'.

If those penalties have been instigated in a specific example then great, it looks like the team has taken great actions themselves and so they should, but not all teams would do this as a matter of course and not for all instances.

I do not know the circumstances behind the event many people are talking about in the back ground so can not comment on them.

I am talking in general terms to improve the sport of paintball and get rid of the cheats and bad behaviour.

That may take some harsh methods, but I would accept them because I play clean and want to play on a clean team. In many cases I feel the unhappy people are those that are not so confident in themselves or their teams (and I really don't mean that as a direction or point towards anyone, I'm just adding to the debate here, and I'm saying that if you don't cheat and your team doesn't cheat you have no concerns with any of these punishments). It's only the cheats that should be worried...

manike