Speaking my brains...

[manike]

The Iraqi's have already started surrendering... but the Allied forces have asked them not to until the war actually starts!

There is just a little humour there?... isn't there?

It seems so surreal from here. I hope it is over swiftly and with the minimum casualties. On all sides.

I feel sick for everyone involved and those about to step out into an unsure future. It's scary. I'm not religious but I feel like I want to pray for those involved.

 

[Mark/Static]

Alright...

Originally posted by Solonor
The time could seem right if ,for example, weapons were found on Iraq.

Resolution 1441 said it was Saddam's job to disclose, not UNMOVIC to find. With Saddam's deception program, electronic monitoring of inspectors, and mobile chem-labs it could've been a long long time before any were found, and this would make real disarmament impossible.

Originally posted by Solonor
The excuse issue is cool and logical. But still it's not the opressed people who tried to liberate.

If this is to point out that the morality of your arguement is loftier than ours, I also will point out that Saddam's continued ruling of Iraq puts more innocent Iraqis in peril, than if we didn't remove Saddam.

Originally posted by Solonor
Lastly I find it difficult to understand how people can so easily admit that France cares only for Iraqi oils ,and not consider the same for the U.S.

Because France currently has a $50 billion oil deal with Saddam, and Chirac was opposed to any action against Iraq no matter what. The US could've had a better deal if they allowed Saddam to keep Kuwait, but we didn't.
But if your confused how do you think I feel when 6 months ago our blood-lust for oil was the only game in town?

Originally posted by Solonor
And you should think twice before talking about my opinion towards the U.S. It's easy to say for other people that your opinions are the result of nation's propaganda.
It's also insulting.

Sorry you feel that way, but I never said that your opinion was the result of any national propaganda. I just happen to know that Greeks don't think very highly of the United States.

 

[Solonor]

1. Still the inspectors haven't found any.
2.I don't think so ,but I hope so.
3.Exactly ,for me both care mostly for oil.
4.Yes ,but not me ,trust me'bout that.

And one thing more. Can you 100% say that this war won't result to another 11th Sep ,in 20 years?
Respect
Antony Pashos

 

[Gyroscope]

TNG & Mark/Static- My assessment that we wouldn't have gotten into this war if not for WTC attacks is not based on "misguided pacifism". It is based on statements made by then candidate G. W. Bush that the United States should not be the world's policeman. Clearly, his attitude at that time was more isolationist than it is now. Is the change for better or worse? Read on.

Mark/Static- The difference between our failure to comprehend the brutality possible in a world where dictators rule unchecked is dfferent from similar failures on the part of other nations because during the Cold War we supported a number of these brutal dictators. I know, I know, desperate times call for hanky panky, but this is different from "out of the blue, a new villian". We share responsibilty for the creation of a few of our enemies. Maybe not N. Korea, but certainly Saddam and the Muhajadeen.

On the topic of nation building, it has been a very mixed bag. On the one hand, there are success stories like Japan, post WWII. On the other hand, there are embarassing failures like Chile. I don't think we should judge ourselves by comparison to other nations. We are different from other nations in outlook and capacity.

I felt that the Taliban was worthy of removal when they began destroying Buddhist statuary carved into mountains and dispossessing women of the right to seek an education. I felt it was time to remove Saddam when weapons inspectors left during the Clinton Administration. If I suggest that our responsibilty is greater than being the wielder of the big stick, that does not mean I am a pacifist. It means I see our mission being to spread freedom, not just destroy potential threats.

Of course we don't wait for the attack to come before acting. And of course we think of the cost of acting and the consequences of removing a government from its nation before doing it.

 

[Gyroscope]

Solonor-

Can you say, 100%, that avoiding this war will prevent another invasion of Kuwait, gassing of the Tokyo subway, or WTC style attack? Can you say anything about what is going to happen in 20 years that is not a wild guess?

Waiting for 100% certainties gaurantees never acting in time.

With all due respect, that is an unfair question.

 

[stongle]

Strange things afoot at the circle K(uwait)

OK lame Bill n Ted quote but anyway,

Not really sure if it's the tail waggin the dog, but their appear to be some difference in the reporting thus far. US based sources up until 0230 am GMT were saying war had yet to start, however UK based news services were pretty specific re fighting round Basra (ITN). Probably was someform of Special Ops mission gone a we bit pear shaped. Still it became a bit academic till 0230 when 40 Tomahawks were launched at Targets in and around Baghdad. Speculation is that the allies are getting some form of human intell on Saddam's location as the strike seemed a little bit limited.

Oh and who thinks that was the real Saddam on TV this morning or not???????

 

[Buddha 3]

Yeah, it was indeed an attempt at taking out some leadership personnell (at least, if military intelligence is speaking the truth....).
However, given the very limited form of the attack(s), I do agree that this is not the "official" start of the war.

I also thought about the Saddam doppelgangers he has running around, but I do think that this was the real one. It showed some frailty which he would rather not show (his thick glasses, if a doppelganger was used, it would most likely show a "perfect" Saddam, and his greying hair), plus it was in what looked like a small room, which could easily be part of a bunker complex, not the sort of palace suite you'd expect from him when he's staging a show. But that's just guesswork really.

As far as the firefight is concerned, I have very little faith in the accuracy of these reports. If it were indeed SBS or SAS troops, their identity should have been hard to tell, how would the reporters know who's fighting? Could just be some form of psychological warfare, where things are done to make the Iraqi's believe that fighting is taking place...who knows?

 

[Solonor]

Gyroscope

You claim that the U.S. start a war to prevent a possible threat. (only the possibility instead of certainty is immoral)
In my eyes this war will result in more terrorists.
More dangerous than Saddam now.
But yes this is just a thought.

 

[TJ Lambini]

Bogus.

 

[duffistuta]

Mark, you said in rebuttal to me: >>>Our reason is security, whether you agree with that assessment or not, it's why we're going in.

Um, is that not exactly what I said - it's expedient and has nothing to do with liberating opressed people.




You also said:>>>The US feels Saddam is a threat. You all say that we shouldn't invade Iraq because innocent Iraqis will die. It is an indisputable certain fact when I say that Saddam will kill and rape innocent Iraqis if he stays in power. You say that's just an excuse, that the US doesn't care about innocent Iraqis. I say, that that's not OUR excuse for going to war, it's YOUR excuse for not going to war, and it's a bad one because more will end up dying if we don't. Where do you get the nerve to turn YOUR excuse into OUR excuse?

No, my excuse for not going to war is that it will cause more terrorism, more deaths and more anti-west feeling in the Middle East and is sowing the seeds for even greater destruction. I have maintained since the start that once the Palestinian question is dealt with seriously by the west, turning our attention to ALL evil murdering regimes - yes China, that means you too - will be made a whole lot simpler. As it is at the moment, a large amount of the Arab world sees the West as anti-Arab; this war is compounding that, and that is making the situation a whole lot worse for everyone.