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Solid balls in the UK....

Originally posted by Hotpoint
Unfortunately there is also Precedent (Case Law) on this which states that when the Firearms Acts say "lethal" it should also be taken to mean "potentially lethal"

Unfortunately "Potentially" is vague enough to probably drag us in if the courts decided to clobber us on that one since you can fire other ammunition from a marker
I'm sure hotpoint will correct me on this if I'm wrong but if memory serves correctly the sheriffs office (think I got that right) in Edinburgh declared paintball guns illeagal in 1990/91 after test firing a steel ball bearing at a cadavre - that's a dead body if you don't know (or Jose on a Sunday morning after a weekend in Cuba Cuba :D )

They determined that there was sufficient damage induced that would be "potentially lethal" if fired at a living person. The test ranges were 12 inches & 6 inches. They declined to comment on the fact that you could actually do more damage by beating your victim with the flipping gun at that distance, but hey...the law knows best.

There was also another case a few years back which I'm a little more hazy on where it was reported that syringes could be modied into "potentially lethal" (there's that phrase again) projectiles fired from...you guessed it..paintball guns.

I personally would actively discourage sites from using solid rubber balls for customers. Especially as it does clearly state on the packing not to fire at people then I would imagine that their insurance would not cover any possible injuries arising from their use. If individuals chose to "train" with them then I'd look at it. I must admit I have considered using them for this purpose myself but in liight of this thread I think I may be reconsidering.

Oh and yes they are a similar weight to "real" paintballs so their flight characteristics are not too different in that respect, they do however require a bit of silicon to get them through the barrel and the "seam" from the moulding is not great which would probably have some significant effect on accurracy over distance.
 

JoseDominguez

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Oct 25, 2002
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I must take exception to Hatts post, I think it was disgusting and offensive.


In the UK a corpse is spelled CADAVER.

you french git.


Other than that I completely agree :), I'm not saying it's right or wrong to be using training balls etc...... what I am saying is it's all the law needs to come down on us like a ton of bricks. (That's 1016 kilos of bricks to you Frenchie). A marker can be used to fire almost anything....... the are often used to fire tranq darts with a minor breech modification, what we don't need to do is advertise the fact
And another thing........ what's stopping your average player for practicing in the garden, garage or house? is it safety? hell no, it's the mess.......... remove the mess and suddenly the scope for fooling around is enhanced massively. And don't say it won't happen, or it'll be a minority........it won't. And there's still the problem of "oh........ I left a ball in the hopper, or there's still one in the breach" messy when it's old paint but what if you leave a rubber ball in the pipe? What about that last ball that's always rolling around the halo or egg? you don't always remember.
Can a practice round pierce a barrel condom? has it even been checked? are there any rules?
what happens when it hits a barricade and bounces off? a solid projectile will retain a lot more energy on the bounce...... hitting sup air absorbs velocity and bounces aren't going fast......... hit a peg or a gas bottle and you get a burst............. but what if a rubber ball hits something solid? it's going to go over the net at speed.
None of this might be a problem........... but I can guarantee that none of it has been checked either.
 

Skeet

Platinum Member
Sorry Boss...wont do it again...well, not in this thread anyway...
Anyway....back on topic...Ive often found that solid balls can be quite painfull...but I only have the Mrs to blame for that....:D

How easy would it be to prevent them from being made available in this country..it does seem that the Pro's are seriously outweighed by the Con's....
 

Bully

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2001
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Comments

It has just been suggested that I have a look at this thread. (To date I have only read the first page Sorry!!!!)

Personally I can not see a problem ---------- O dear !!! – I will explain

My first point -- It is simple there is a limit placed on a paintball marker to prevent it been classed as anything other than an air weapon. Simple !!! So if you want to fire a plastic ball then you have to work the weight out and then do the maths and you then get a limit. Now one of the reason paintball is seen in a good light by authorities is the "frangible" nature of the paintball. To the less well informed --- it bursts --- so if you want to put a hard ball into a marker that does not burst you might have a problem. Hence the Hatts points about Scotland -- they used a ball bearing and then banned paintball.

Second Point - I have seen the two types of ball mentioned, the velcro type and the plastic type. The velcro type and the marker designed to fire this type fires at about 100-150fps and is inaccurate. The plastic ball fired in a normal marker will fire at what ever velocity you want. (Incidentally they were around about 5/6 years ago they are not new). If we "banned" this item what would we achieve -- nothing, it is not the sensible paintballer using the plastic balls who will create a problem it is the idiots and they would probably use ball bearings and we can't ban them!!

Third point- The reusable paintballs have been used for at least two years at an indoor site in the North West, their markers fire at a lot lower velocity than a tournie marker to try to prevent bruises, they also wear padded vests that detect the hits. Even at a lower velocity bruises occur. They work well in an indoor venue as they can be swept up washed and reused.

Fourth point-- Tournie players will use them (training) BUT remember at 300fps you will get SERIOUS bruises. Any player knows that the balls that bounce quiet often cause the bigger bruises. Reusable - maybe - but outside on a muddy training day shooting 5,000 paintballs who is going to go round bending down to collect 5,000 paintballs. I am not suggesting for one minute that players cheat but as one who has watched 1000's of games I can't see players walking out of a game without a nice splat on their body!!! Airsofters operate differently from paintball they walk for what players would call a bouncer - paintballers don’t call themselves out without a splat.

Fifth point - As a site operator (outdoor) they will not catch on (remind me of this post when I buy 10 boxes). We make money out of customers firing paintballs, it is a pain when they pick up old balls and use them again, jamming markers etc... Imagine 1000’s of these spread over 10-20 acres of a site. Customers would buy the first 100 and then pick up the next 500 from the floor --- commercial suicide so I cant see them catching on in the woods.

Final point. Taking all into consideration I can't see them catching on (except indoor venues) Now the crunch point, if you want a sure fire way of getting paintball banned fire a product in the woods that is not BIODEGRADABLE. If we fired 50,000 plastic balls in the woods and the local environmental experts saw them on the ground and they did not dissolve in 7/10 days they would have a field day. The cry would go out to “Ban paintball it is having an adverse effect on the environment”. This lobby is more powerful than you think. So I can't see reusable paintballs working in an outdoor site situation.

Sorry one more -- If a team used reusable paintballs on my site I would make sure they picked all of them up at the end of the days, and I am sure the vast majority of site owners would agree with me. Paintballs have never been so cheap as they are at present, so I think I would rather leave 10,000 paintballs on the grounds than spend several hours picked them up.

Only my comments not an official UKPSF line.

Steve


:)
 

Red_Merkin

IMHO
Jul 9, 2001
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Force = Mass x Acceleration

If the mass of the rubber ball is the same as the mass of a paintball, (as suggested in the REBALL advert in PGI this month) and the Acceleration is the same, (you didn't turn up your velocity) then the force is the same.

If the force is the same, then the potential for harm is the same, and therefore 'common sense' dictates that there should be no additional legislation on this product.

However 'common sense' and British Politics are rarely invited to the same party, so Olly, anybody's guess is a good guess.

I'm more interested in Bully's analasys of how the re-usable paintball effects the comercial rental market...
 

Munkeh

Planet of the Apes
Jul 12, 2002
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Well actually no. Because one is solid, so on impact it will recbound off the target/person/etc. It will cause much more damage than a projectile which on impact will deform and shatter.
 

JoseDominguez

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Oct 25, 2002
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Originally posted by Red_Merkin
Force = Mass x Acceleration

If the mass of the rubber ball is the same as the mass of a paintball, (as suggested in the REBALL advert in PGI this month) and the Acceleration is the same, (you didn't turn up your velocity) then the force is the same.

If the force is the same, then the potential for harm is the same, and therefore 'common sense' dictates that there should be no additional legislation on this product.

However 'common sense' and British Politics are rarely invited to the same party, so Olly, anybody's guess is a good guess.

I'm more interested in Bully's analasys of how the re-usable paintball effects the comercial rental market...
cool, lets have a duel, you use a 2lb french stick and I'll use a 2lb log :)
If a solid ball hits you, some of the energy is translated into sound and a little into friction...... the rest into rebound and pain. If a frangible/soft round hits you it loses most of it's energy in it's own disintegration and deformation. think about being hit by a water balloon or an apple at 200fps....... same mass and volume...... one is funny, the other will knock you out (but you might discover gravity when you come round).

My main worry is still the fact that we aren't under the spotlight because our ammo bursts. It would only take one accident and "Rubber bullets freely available to our children" hits the sun. Plus the rounds designed to fire at 150 fps? what happens if someone makes a mistake? are marshals going to check hoppers and pots now? at the moment I know the only thing coming at me is paint........... if players are going to use these things for practice, they are going to be laying around in kit bags and hoppers/pots.
At the moment a marker can be turned up to an illegal velocity and it hurts more........... what about a 440 marker firing rubber rounds? anyone tested this? will it go through a condom.....how fast is it returning on the bounce?