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So what happened? Anything?

First of all i wrote a lot of this with a lot of ironi in it:) - i just dont wont this to be another boring discussion.

Of course we are enforcing the rules and we are consistent about it. When we come to safety there is no slack at all so please leave that out of this discussion.

For those of you who have been whatcing us ref in the NPPL or been ref'd by us, i think you will agree with me when i say we are unbiased when we do so and that we are enforcing the rules,
at least most of them.

My point is: What matters and what don't?
 

sjt19

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May 23, 2002
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Originally posted by Steinar Tuft
First of all i wrote a lot of this with a lot of ironi in it:) - i just dont wont this to be another boring discussion.
It wasnt a boring discussion, it was fine. If your post was intended in ironic jest then a tip for the future, use the little smiley faces, they help! :rolleyes: (see how i used it there?:D And again)

Originally posted by Steinar Tuft

My point is: What matters and what don't?
Thats not for you to decide, the rules are there for a reason and it is not your place to decide what matters

Peace

:)
 

sjt19

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Originally posted by Steinar Tuft

I dont even know whos playing before after the game in 90 % of the games.
Hmm...so the names Oliver Lang, or Ryan Greenspan dont give it away on the back of their blue JT Dynasty shirts.....?:rolleyes: Or the calls of D..Y..N..A..S..T..Y..before the game? Or the crowds on the bleachers chanting? Or when the Avalanche logo on the shirts is in front of you as you band them up?

:p :D
 
Thats not for you to decide, the rules are there for a reason and it is not your place to decide what matters
That's the reasons for asking the question:D
F.ex: i lost my voice and asked one of the other refs to start the games. According to the rules, thats not allowed, it should be the headref (3.01 - NPPL)

I admit i broke the rules, but therefor my question - what matters?

Hmm...so the names Oliver Lang, or Ryan Greenspan dont give it away on the back of their blue JT Dynasty shirts.....? Or the calls of D..Y..N..A..S..T..Y..before the game? Or the crowds on the bleachers chanting? Or when the Avalanche logo on the shirts is in front of you as you band them up?
90 % leave me some slack here:D , but when they play i see the blue shirt and not the one wearing it.
 

knobbs

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Sep 16, 2002
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One thing that should always matter is physical contact between players. This is a non-contact sport and any intentional physical contact is just asking for trouble.

Grabbing the marker as was done is extremely unsafe, as it could have accidentally gone off...and with the Ton Ton player's facemask gone that could have meant lost teeth, a paintball down the throat (choking, perhaps?), an eye blown out (it's been said before that a well placed paintball on the cheek without a facemask could conceivalby deform the cheek and blow into the eye), or other type of injury.

Not to mention if the Naughty Dog player read it as a physical attack and acted in kind, in which case goggles could have come off, marker could have gone off and hit him even more easily.

That and it flies directly in the face of the authority of the refs. The refs made the call. It is final. The players need to respect that, or take it through the proper channels. The display that occurred in this game is akin to a coach in baseball kicking dirt at the umpire...someone's getting ejected if that happens.
 

sjt19

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Originally posted by Steinar Tuft

90 % leave me some slack here:D , but when they play i see the blue shirt and not the one wearing it.
90% of ballers are nobody's though dude.;) :D

Peace:)
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Originally posted by Steinar Tuft
I admit i broke the rules, but therefor my question - what matters?
Fair question, Steinar. It's why I also said that if there are rules that aren't enforced they need to go. I'm not determined to enforce every rule for the sake of the rules. I'm concerned about enforcement because it's the foundation of the game.
And if there are rules present that are irrelevant to the integrity of the game or impossible to maintain they ought to go--not be ignored or followed when it's convenient.

Steve--Steinar is also right about the pressure between enforcement and scheduling--and it is invariably made clear to them that the schedule must be met. There often simply isn't time to deal with more complicated issues. Another reason to limit the scope of the refs responsibilities.
 

shamu

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Apr 17, 2002
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Good discussion but ease up a bit on Steiner. When he says:

"i'm enforcing those rules who matters, on the field there and then"

I don't for a second think he means the safety rules or eliminations. I can understand being flexible in some of the grey areas. One good example of this is players coming out of the box at the end of the game. Should we let them come out of the box? No. However, given the limited number of refs available, it's usually not possible to have one ref assigned to each box to watch for players coming out of the box, making it much more difficult to monitor.

In NJ, when we had extra refs during semi-finals and finals, we stationed a ref in each box - just to keep the players under control during and after the games. The fact that we had to do this is, to me, just plain sad. I understand this is a passionate, adrenaline-based sport, but you should still be able to control your gross motor functions. Yell, scream, bitch, jump up and down as much as you like but stay in the d*mn box. If you have such poor impulse control (no pun intended), do we really want you running around with a loaded marker? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

For those who think leaving the deadbox isn't a grey area - at what point do you assess the penalty? If the player puts one foot outside the box? Both feet? Gets more than five feet from the box? What if the players just standing there waiting for the "game over" signal? Do you warn the player once/twice/three times a lady (sorry, had a Lionel Ritchie flashbacks there :D) before penalizing them? Now make all these decisions within five seconds while still keeping track of what's happening on the field. If you ask the Rules committee (you know - the guys who write the rules) you'll get three different answers to the question, followed by "use your best judgement", which is what we do. It's taken four events just to get the language rule worked out, for Robbo's sake :D

To be clear - This is NOT an excuse for not enforcing the rule. Just an example of the way the rules can be interpreted and the need to improve these areas.

In the specific example of the ND/TT game - I would have asked for the ejection if it was my field, but it wasn't. I was only on the NPPL field for semis and finals, so it wasn't my call.

Are we making progress on our reffing? Hell yes.

Are we perfect yet? Hell no

I would like to hear what you think should be done for enforcing ejections/suspensions/etc. If a players is suspended for three games in the NPPL, should that suspension be honored by the Mil? And if the player sits the three games during a Mil event, who's going to confirm this to the NPPL?

PS - For those who don't know, I am a NPPL ref and worked the Evil and NPPL fields in NJ. Feel free to tell me how bad I suck at reffing. Players do it all the time - usually after I pull them for that hit they tried to slide off :rolleyes: and I still don't give sh*t when they say it.

PPS - Steiner - Hope to see you and the rest of the guys in Miami!
 

shamu

Tonight we dine in hell
Apr 17, 2002
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Originally posted by Baca Loco
Fair question, Steinar. It's why I also said that if there are rules that aren't enforced they need to go. I'm not determined to enforce every rule for the sake of the rules. I'm concerned about enforcement because it's the foundation of the game.
And if there are rules present that are irrelevant to the integrity of the game or impossible to maintain they ought to go--not be ignored or followed when it's convenient.

Steve--Steinar is also right about the pressure between enforcement and scheduling--and it is invariably made clear to them that the schedule must be met. There often simply isn't time to deal with more complicated issues. Another reason to limit the scope of the refs responsibilities.
Cow being the voice of reason? We're through the looking glass now :D :D :D

I completely agree with your statements though. I wouldn't mind seeing the rule book slimmed down a bit. There are some rules that go back to the 15 man woods days. Streamlining the rules would make the refs jobs a bit easier. Just have to make sure they don't get trimmed so much that new loopholes are opened.

As far as the schedule goes - you hit the nail on the head. What's the biggest reason schedules fall behind? I'll give you three guesses ;) :D :D