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So what happened? Anything?

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
We's getting off track a bit but since you asked

Originally posted by Wadidiz
Amen, brother! You know I'm with you on that!

1--But is there room to warn rather than follow through with what is permissable or called for in the rules. Let's say I get shoved by a team captain while performing my duties. I could have him penalized (kicked out) or I could let him know that next time he would definitely get penalized. I don't think I am wrong to do the latter. But am I wrong to do the former?

2--I suppose that differs from judge to judge, person to person. I know I would suspend a player first time for throwing a marker with tank.

I've heard criticisms for both ways, too. "Damn, don't you think you're being to harsh?" "Why didn't you pull that guy for talking back at you?"

3--What alternative to this do you suggest?
1--if the rules give you, as a ref options, fine. If they don't you can't arbitrarily decide to do things the way you want to.
In the example you gave if any player shoves a ref he's done. Cut and dried, no room for mitigation. IMHO. First thing the organizations must do is establish a standard of respect for their officials.
Otherwise my choice would be to take the responsibility for disciplinary action outside of a game situation away from the refs altogether. For example, an angry player tosses his gun after the game over while arguing the result. Head ref calls the Ultimate, relays info, Ultimate comes down, confirms the action and makes the call.
Protect the refs and limit their duties to during the game calls only. Then write the conduct rules in plain, unambiguous language with as little grey area as possible--then enforce them.
2--it shouldn't. The rules should limit that sort of thing as much as possible because it only causes problems. There is a measure of unavoidable subjectivity to reffing but it should be limited wherever possible.
3--given the current structures in Paintball probably not a lot unless or until more players would be willing to take an active role. Should that actually ever happen it would be very interesting to see just how that tug of war played out. As long as power comes from the top down it can always be taken away.

Best you can probably hope for is to simplify the rules. Add or keep only those that will be implemented. Keep the focus as narrow and specific as possible. Limit the responsibility of the on field refs and at each event have revolving members of the Disciplinary Committee on site to make necessary calls. That would make a start.
Even then people are still subject to lots of different kinds of pressure and the only real answer is to neutralise the ability to apply pressure and that ain't gonna happen.
 
Re: Re: So what happened? Anything?

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Thanks, Steinar, for the explanation. I've no problem at all with how the game was handled on field by you guys. My issue is with how the league handled or didn't handle it after the fact.
If there are rules covering certain actions then the rules need to be enforced--not some sort of arrangement agreed to. Who is gonna check the rosters of the TonTon teams at Campaign or Miami? Is it gonna happen? And even if the player in question is benched for six months the matter was not an internal TonTon problem--it was a league problem--and far as I can tell they were happy to whisk the whole thing away as quick as possible.
During the tournament we kept a very high standard when reffing, but the condition on the field and the number of refs made us do some mistakes and not wiping off the hopper was one of them (rule 12.51 NPPL). So as a player i can understand why they reacted as they did - and that was my reasons for not making a report to the committee on it.
Did ND make a report on it? I dont think so, but if they did, i'm sure the committee will take some actions.

Of course as a ref we should use rule 12.56 Un - sportsman like conduct or 14 A Extreme Un - sportsman like conduct but i did'nt - like it or not. :D
And another thing is: if we suspend some players in the NPPL or the Millennium do you really think the other league would know?
We don't have the system for that yet, but sometime in the future....... :confused:

As a headref in the NPPL and an ultimate in Toulouse and Stockholm i must say there is a lot of work to do...
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
OK, I guess I do have a problem with how you handled it

Originally posted by Steinar Tuft
1--So as a player i can understand why they reacted as they did - and that was my reasons for not making a report to the committee on it.
2--Did ND make a report on it? I dont think so, but if they did, i'm sure the committee will take some actions.

3--Of course as a ref we should use rule 12.56 Un - sportsman like conduct or 14 A Extreme Un - sportsman like conduct but i did'nt - like it or not. :D
4--And another thing is: if we suspend some players in the NPPL or the Millennium do you really think the other league would know?
Before I make any other comment let me say I really appreciate you taking the time to reply, Steinar. I hope you don't take any of this too personally cos I don't intend it that way even though I'm gonna give you a hard time. :) And now to the nasty bits--;) :)
1--it doesn't matter whether or not the behavior was understandable. What matters is whether or not it's in violation of the rules. Would it also have been understandable behavior if it had been a player for Team Zippo?
2--why is it ND's responsibility to report? You were the lead representative of the league on that field, not them. Besides, you and I both know why they didn't report it. It wouldn't have been politically expedient. A whole other problem.
3--I don't like it because it was your job to enforce the rules--not just the ones you felt like enforcing.
4--Is that supposed to be a reason for doing nothing?
 
1--it doesn't matter whether or not the behavior was understandable. What matters is whether or not it's in violation of the rules. Would it also have been understandable behavior if it had been a player for Team Zippo?
Well during this tournament we had about 4 "team Zippo" doing the "same" thing one way or the another on my field. I did not report them either.

2--why is it ND's responsibility to report? You were the lead representative of the league on that field, not them. Besides, you and I both know why they didn't report it. It wouldn't have been politically expedient. A whole other problem.
No, i did not know.

3--I don't like it because it was your job to enforce the rules--not just the ones you felt like enforcing.
Enforcing the rules - sounds great doesent it?
Enforcing the rules vs timeschedule, what do you prefere?

I speak for my self now and i can only say - i'm enforcing those rules who matters, on the field there and then - sometimes with slack and sometimes without but i'm consistent about it!
We did'nt have any complains on our field in Chicago or NJ - must have done something right then.

It's so easy to destroy all the games with the rulebook in your hand and it's the same with the law, religion and anything else where they have laws.

I guess if you and Steve where put on the field reffing together, you would screw up almost everything with "enforcing the rules".
I'm sure you would have the correct result's (almost) at the end, but the schedule would be f.... and perhaps the most important thing - the pleasure of playing would be gone, and at the end you would have no respect at all from the players.

I was a MP in the army - i was in Lebanon (84/85) and in Irak (91) enforcing the rules (my way). My point with this is - i have some experience doing it!

Please use a simpel language when you write - i dont have college:D
 

sjt19

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Originally posted by Steinar Tuft
Well during this tournament we had about 4 "team Zippo" doing the "same" thing one way or the another on my field. I did not report them either.
Then plain and simple you are not doing your job! If what you have just said is true, then you leave yourself open to players thinking you are bias, letting certain things go when they should be punished.

Originally posted by Steinar Tuft

Enforcing the rules - sounds great doesent it?
Enforcing the rules vs timeschedule, what do you prefere?
CANT BELIEVE I AM HEARING THIS!!! Why cant you have both...?? Its not as if you suspend the time during the game to penalise players is it! Personally i would rather have the rules enforced than the schedule running on time. I suspect that every other player out there would rather the event ran late each day than the rules were not enforced.

Originally posted by Steinar Tuft

i'm enforcing those rules who matters, on the field there and then - sometimes with slack and sometimes without but i'm consistent about it!
It is not your job to decide which rules you implement, agree with them or not, they are there for a reason even if it does not seem like it to you! Who do you think you are to decide what is allowed and what is not?! Do you not think that the rules comittee sat down for hours to devise the rules?


Originally posted by Steinar Tuft

It's so easy to destroy all the games with the rulebook in your hand and it's the same with the law, religion and anything else where they have laws.
Without rules there would be chaos! I cant believe you were a particularly good MP if you were selective in what rules you implemented and which ones you didnt.

Originally posted by Steinar Tuft

the pleasure of playing would be gone, and at the end you would have no respect at all from the players.
NO, you couldnt be more wrong! YOU as a referee will, if you have not already, lose the respect of the judges and players if this is your attitude. Players will be more pissed if the reffing is bad, than if the reffing was strict. All that will happen is that when the players play ont he field that you are in charge of is "hey guys, its the guy who bends the rules, lets see how far we can push this fool" instead of "hey guys, this guy has a rep for being a hard nosed down the line ref...DO NOT do anything that will give him an excuse to eliminate you". Which field do you think will see the better game from the two teams? The teams trying to bend the rules, or those playing uber fair?

I hope that this is not the attitude of the NPPL as a whole in respect of playing by the rules.....


:rolleyes: :( :rolleyes: :(
 
D

duffistuta

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>>>It is not your job to decide which rules you implement, agree with them or not, they are there for a reason even if it does not seem like it to you! Who do you think you are to decide what is allowed and what is not?! Do you not think that the rules comittee sat down for hours to devise the rules?<<<

Steady on Sam - think about footy; refs choose when to play the advantage, when to penalise a player for aggression (based on their persobnal view of whether he is just being hotheaded or malicious, or whether there was intent there) and so on. The rules may be hard and fast but the ref can be fluid in his enforcement of them based on the nature of the situation in question.

A good ref in any sport will be flexible, not rigid...
 

Wadidiz

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Originally posted by Steinar Tuft
I guess if you and Steve where put on the field reffing together, you would screw up almost everything with "enforcing the rules". I'm sure you would have the correct result's (almost) at the end, but the schedule would be f.... and perhaps the most important thing - the pleasure of playing would be gone, and at the end you would have no respect at all from the players.
Wow!:confused:

When I took up the example of someone shoving a ref I used that from my own experience. I didn't suspend the person, I warned him.

But I am beginning to agree with Baca that it might be better to just be consistent all the way through.

Also, how does enforcing the rules mess up the schedule?

Let's take an example: Let's say I'm reffing and an angry player throws his marker. I then tell the head field judge the name of the player who did it who then tells the captain of the team that said player is suspended and that they would play one player short for the remainder of that tournament. The head field judge would then inform the scorekeeper and the ultimate what happened and all the fields would be radioed the instructions concerning the offending team.

What's so hard about that?

That actually happened at one Millennium where I judged last year, the ultimate agreed to the suspension but it was not followed up by the ultimate and the offending player continued playing. That made me look like a toothless tiger and diminished the whole judging organization's respect.

I could give you pages of examples.

Baca is right. We have to be consistent and the powers-that-be MUST see to it that the rules and the judges are respected. I don't think I need to break it down for you why.

"...the pleasure of playing would be gone, and at the end you would have no respect at all from the players."

When cheating and unsafe behavior prevail the pleasure of playing will definitely be gone. And throwing markers and unsafe markers could make the whole sport disappear. It will be gone!

If the WHOLE organization has reasonable rules, enforces them consistently and backs up the refs, then we WILL HAVE THE RESPECT of the players.

We just may be hated by some.

Everything has its cost.

Steve
 

Wadidiz

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Originally posted by sjt19
Then plain and simple you are not doing your job! ... you leave yourself open to players thinking you are bias, letting certain things go when they should be punished.

... I suspect that every other player out there would rather the event ran late each day than the rules were not enforced.

It is not your job to decide which rules you implement, agree with them or not, they are there for a reason even if it does not seem like it to you! Who do you think you are to decide what is allowed and what is not?!

Without rules there would be chaos!

Players will be more pissed if the reffing is bad, than if the reffing was strict. All that will happen is that when the players play ont he field that you are in charge of is "hey guys, its the guy who bends the rules, lets see how far we can push this fool" instead of "hey guys, this guy has a rep for being a hard nosed down the line ref...DO NOT do anything that will give him an excuse to eliminate you". Which field do you think will see the better game from the two teams?
Right on, Sam!

Bear with another example at Huntington Beach: Magued said very clearly to all the refs, set the standard from the very beginning, the first half day, then the rest will be easier. And that's the way it went.

It is so satisfying in the midst of the pain of reffing to see the TRUE, PURE game of paintball emerge after all the bull**** of cheating and pushing the boundaries is filtered out. When that happens you know the whole organization is working like it should.

Most teams would rather, like Sam says, play straight-up PB, that is those who don't spend most of their practice time drilling on how to cheat and push the grey area.

Steve
 

sjt19

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Originally posted by duffistuta

Steady on Sam - think about footy; refs choose when to play the advantage, when to penalise a player for aggression (based on their persobnal view of whether he is just being hotheaded or malicious, or whether there was intent there) and so on. The rules may be hard and fast but the ref can be fluid in his enforcement of them based on the nature of the situation in question.
A good ref in any sport will be flexible, not rigid...
True, but he wrote:

"i'm enforcing those rules who matters, on the field there and then"

A footy ref would not enforce the rules which matter, he would allow advantage, then when play stopped penalise the player. Its just that in Footy and other sports, if a player mistimes a tackle and fouls a player, but then the ball runs to another player who scores that is advantage well played. The offender still gets penalised though. But in our sport, if a player cheats then this has a much more of an effect in the game. he may still ccupy a key barricade which halts a teams movement....or eliminates a player while playing on to change the run of the game. The rules are there for a reason, and why does this guy feels he has the authority to change them?

all that will happen is that the players will think:

"If he has the right to choose which rules he implements....then i have the right to choose which rules i abide by....."

:eek: