So what happened? Anything?

[Baca Loco]

Wonderin' what this is about, aren't ya?

Reading up on the team Enemy stuff it occurred to me that there have been a variety of other recent events that seemed to warrant some sort of disciplinary responses--not just from the Mil kids either who seem to be taking the issues seriously--but across the board. So I thought maybe, since I hadn't heard about any specific responses, I'd ask and see what folks knew (or didn't know.)
And while we're at it maybe we can rate the different series, international, national or local--whatever you play. How are they doing their job? At least as it relates to maintaining control and general rules on conduct enforcement.

For example--
There was a rather ugly incident outside the player's party in Sweden, it appeared briefly on the radar, then disappeared. Was it deemed outside the authority of the disciplinary committee or what?

There was also a little tete-a-tete involving a TonTon at NJ. There was an initial widely observed suggestion the incident certainly merited serious review and many thought some sort of disciplinary action was likely--and yet, here we are, how many weeks later and has anybody heard anything about anyone doing anything--or even saying after investigation no further action is merited? I sure haven't.

Now I hesitate to mention NXL--as it's a slightly different kettle of fish--but reports are there were numerous violations at Philly of player behavior and conduct. Has the league or its commissioner acted in any way, shape or form to take some semblance of control and at least mimic a professional sports organization? Could be but it would be news to me.

On the flip side I recall reading about some to-do at a recent MM event that resulted in relatively swift and severe punishment for the offender(s) that was made public immediately. If the MM can manage why's it so hard for everyone else?

If anyone out there has answers to any of these questions or observations they'd care to make on the general subject--go for it!

 

[Flash-Bugout]

My tuppence worth:

If you're a "big cheese" in the paintball world, or even attached to one, you can just get on and do what you want, and when you seriously cross the line, don't worry about any disciplinary action, cos you can just withdraw your sponsorship/support/custom from whichever series punishes you.

Can anyone else remember a certain "big cheese" at Campaign Cup 2001 getting quite anoyed and throwing his marker very hard into the running track, and possibly throwing his hopper off into the (unnoccupied area of) the seating?

I'd be happy to wager that nobody high up in paintball can remember this happenning.

Basically, unless you're a nobody with no friends in high places, the disciplinary section of the rules may as well not exist.

 

[Steinar Tuft]

There was also a little tete-a-tete involving a TonTon at NJ. There was an initial widely observed suggestion the incident certainly merited serious review and many thought some sort of disciplinary action was likely--and yet, here we are, how many weeks later and has anybody heard anything about anyone doing anything--or even saying after investigation no further action is merited? I sure haven't.

Well that little "tete-a-tete" looked much worse than it was.
1. The winner of this match would go to the semifinals.

2. This is the situation: I pull the last Ton ton player for deadmans talk - the hole deadbox is yelling at someone, in a mix of french and english but i understand its about some hopper - When the Naugthy Dogs player came up to pull the flag, with a hit on his hopper (He was hit by a Ton ton player who did a playing on - and at the end thing happend quite fast so we (the refs) did not wipe his hopper - our mistake, but we watched him all the way down and he was clean) one of the Ton ton player run out of the deadbox to show us the hit - he did not know the story behind it. The rest of the team followed him - some to back him up and some to calm him down. We then put all the players back in the deadbox - well 6 of them, one left the field and that was the player who started it.

3. Of course there are no escuse for such a behavior, but i spoke to the captain of Ton ton and Laurent Hamet and they decided to to pull the player from the team them self for the next 6 months or so. I then spoke to the ultimate and told him to leave it there.

Things like this happends all the time and i know for sure that they did not try to attack somebody or hurt somebody but just want us to know that he was hit on the hopper.
Another thing is - if the hit came frome a live Ton ton player and the ND player hung the flag - we would give Ton ton the victory since ND only had 3 live player.

I hope this clear thing up a little.

Steinar Tuft
Headmarshal NPPL field

 

[Joern Windler]

Originally posted by Baca Loco

For example--
There was a rather ugly incident outside the player's party in Sweden, it appeared briefly on the radar, then disappeared. Was it deemed outside the authority of the disciplinary committee or what?

Its still "on the radar". I wrote to nearly a dozen people asking for their statements. Unfortunately they didnt even reply or they needed very long. Thats the reason why u didnt hear anything. I got eg the statement of one of the involved parties TODAY...
and without statements of the parties we cannot really overlook the situation, cant we?! In my opinion it seemed to be fair to wait until they managed it to write something down...

regards
joern

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Steinar Tuft
3. Of course there are no escuse for such a behavior, but i spoke to the captain of Ton ton and Laurent Hamet and they decided to to pull the player from the team them self for the next 6 months or so. I then spoke to the ultimate and told him to leave it there.

Thanks, Steinar, for the explanation. I've no problem at all with how the game was handled on field by you guys. My issue is with how the league handled or didn't handle it after the fact.
If there are rules covering certain actions then the rules need to be enforced--not some sort of arrangement agreed to. Who is gonna check the rosters of the TonTon teams at Campaign or Miami? Is it gonna happen? And even if the player in question is benched for six months the matter was not an internal TonTon problem--it was a league problem--and far as I can tell they were happy to whisk the whole thing away as quick as possible.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Joern Windler
Its still "on the radar". I wrote to nearly a dozen people asking for their statements. Unfortunately they didnt even reply or they needed very long. Thats the reason why u didnt hear anything. I got eg the statement of one of the involved parties TODAY...
and without statements of the parties we cannot really overlook the situation, cant we?! In my opinion it seemed to be fair to wait until they managed it to write something down...

regards
joern

Good to know, Joern.

 

[raehl]

I think the big problem..

IS that while everyone wants to complain when the situation is at hand, nobody wants to do anything to prevent such situations, or spend time dealing with them after the fact. I don't mean want as in don't think it's a good thing to do...

But when you get down to it, the staff at any league is pretty much overworked as it is, and trying to get paintball players to volunteer time for ANYTHING is right near impossible. We see it when people try and put together rules committees, disciplinary committees, etc. People just have too much RL stuff going on to ever get around to discipline (or even participate in the process), esp. for things that are (as this thread somewhatpoints out) generally quickly fogotten anyway.

- Chris

 

[Baca Loco]

As usual, wide of the mark again

Originally posted by raehl
1--IS that while everyone wants to complain when the situation is at hand, nobody wants to do anything to prevent such situations, or spend time dealing with them after the fact. I don't mean want as in don't think it's a good thing to do...

2--But when you get down to it, the staff at any league is pretty much overworked as it is, and trying to get paintball players to volunteer time for ANYTHING is right near impossible. We see it when people try and put together rules committees, disciplinary committees, etc. People just have too much RL stuff going on to ever get around to discipline (or even participate in the process), esp. for things that are (as this thread somewhatpoints out) generally quickly fogotten anyway.

- Chris

1--IF a rule exists it is the responsibility of those who instituted the rule or rules to enforce them. Having rules that nobody will enforce or will only enforce against the have-nots and nobodies is worse than no rules at all because it demonstrates, time and time again, that the system is not equitable and if it ain't fair in one respect why should anyone believe it is even attempting to be fair in every respect? Cos it obviously ain't.
2--despite your tunnel vision and world as seen thru the prism of the NCPA the world of Paintball doesn't revolve around the way you do things. IF a league has rules it is the league's obligation to enforce them. Period. End of story, no excuses.
Player-based paintball committees serve two functions: 1) cover for promoters and 2) incidentally, maybe do the job they were created for. Call me cynical if you like but player-based committees are lambs to the slaughter in big time international paintball no matter how well intentioned they are. (Which isn't the fault of the lambs, btw)

And contrary to your suggestion while efforts are typically made to sweep unsavory incidents under the rug they aren't forgotten. Anybody who has been involved in national or international PB for a few years could tell you stories all day long like the ones I mentioned and worse.

 

[raehl]

Eh? Your NCPA comment is way off - we actually enforce our rules, and we don't use a player committee to do it (although you could appeal to the Board of Directors).

Anyway, what I was trying to get at is poor behavior is unfortunately the status quo for most tournament leagues, and while it makes for good web forum fodder when it happens, when you get down to it, I don't think anyone REALLY cares, at least, not so much that they wouldn't rather see other things improved first.

The most common paintball player attitude is that if it doesn't effect them directly, they don't give a damn.

- Chris

 

[Wadidiz]

As usual, wide of the mark again

Originally posted by Baca Loco
IF a rule exists it is the responsibility of those who instituted the rule or rules to enforce them. Having rules that nobody will enforce or will only enforce against the have-nots and nobodies is worse than no rules at all because it demonstrates, time and time again, that the system is not equitable and if it ain't fair in one respect why should anyone believe it is even attempting to be fair in every respect? Cos it obviously ain't.

...IF a league has rules it is the league's obligation to enforce them. Period. End of story, no excuses.

Amen, brother! You know I'm with you on that!

But is there room to warn rather than follow through with what is permissable or called for in the rules. Let's say I get shoved by a team captain while performing my duties. I could have him penalized (kicked out) or I could let him know that next time he would definitely get penalized. I don't think I am wrong to do the latter. But am I wrong to do the former?

I suppose that differs from judge to judge, person to person. I know I would suspend a player first time for throwing a marker with tank.

I've heard criticisms for both ways, too. "Damn, don't you think you're being to harsh?" "Why didn't you pull that guy for talking back at you?"

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Player-based paintball committees serve two functions: 1) cover for promoters and 2) incidentally, maybe do the job they were created for. Call me cynical if you like but player-based committees are lambs to the slaughter in big time international paintball no matter how well intentioned they are. (Which isn't the fault of the lambs, btw)

And contrary to your suggestion while efforts are typically made to sweep unsavory incidents under the rug they aren't forgotten. Anybody who has been involved in national or international PB for a few years could tell you stories all day long like the ones I mentioned and worse.

What alternative to this do you suggest?