Return of the Political Thread

[RoryM]

Europe is only as strong as it's weakest link, and several more have been added to the chain of late. Economically as a whole it is a shambles with member states scrabbling around trying to find loopholes in the constitution to ensure fiscal compliance for continued membership, rather than just admitting a that as an economic model for such a wide and diverse area, it is impossible for all to adhere to, even the Germans and French!

Interest rate caps have sent governments into a frenzy of interest rate control that has caused overborrowing of titanic numbers, and a banking economy that is wondering wher the cash for these borrowing streams, if they continue, will come from. Natural interest rate fluctuations that control prices in manner that is relevant to money supply are now defunct. Bad sign. The above is a very good example of what happened to the Communist state and money control, in the end it just bankrupted itself.

As for NATO, bin it, no USSR/Eastern Block to worry about now. Just another huge cash drain for the major states to gurantee the minor they got their backs covered if it kicks off. And why do you always see UK/US forces leading the way into the areas in the early 90's where there was a remote chance of anyone getting hurt??

The EU only benefits those that take out more than they put in,
real pain that as we see feck all benefit in the UK, unless you are a pikey scummer who want to use the supreme Euro court to fight for your right to tarmac over any blade of grass you see fit to rest their scrounging butts on.

rant off!!

 

[Matski]

Originally posted by Intheno


We could promise to continue to let you use the SAS and RAF for all the tricky or dangerous stuff, and to continue to train your Seals and 'elite' fighting forces, if you promise to pull out, hows that?

Also formally appologise for the utter bollocks that was the 'historical movie' U-571..

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Was originally title, Return of the Grossly Inappropriate Political Thread but it ran out of characters after 'inappropriate' and I knew that would attract the wrong sort of potential poster . . .

The Soviets used tanks, the EU uses banks

Vladimir Bukovsky (one time leading Soviet dissident:
"For anyone even remotely familiar with the Soviet system, its similarity with the developing structures of the European Union, with its governing philosophy and "democracy deficit," its endemic corruption and bureaucratic ineptitude, is striking. For anyone who lived under the Soviet tyranny or its equivalents across the world, it is frightening. Once again we observe with growing horror the emergence of a Leviathan that we had hoped was dead and buried, a monster that destroyed scores of nations, impoverished millions, and devastated several generations before finally collapsing. Is it inevitable? Is the human race bent on self-destruction and doomed to repeat the same mistake time and again until it dies in misery? Or is the EU, indeed, simply a clone of the USSR imposed upon reluctant nations of Europe by the same political forces that created the first one?"

Look, we're busy suspending human rights and bringing in house arrest and Brussels isn't getting in the way of that, so they're obviously right thinking at heart.

As an aside, isn't that a similar argument that the anti-federalists make against being governed from Washington? What's the difference between the US and Europe - you've got diverse languages and cultures, dirt poor States being supported by richer ones, plenty of endemic corruption and ineptitude and so on...time doesn't confer legitimacy does it?

 

[Tonymicjoe]

The similarity between the Soviet regime, the developing EU and NATO in my mind boils down to one thing: People. Very few people, and absolutely no politicians, do selfless things for the common good. There is more than enough of everything on the planet for everyone, but because of how people are wired up, there is always going to be someone who will take advantage of any leverage to make sure that they and their's have more than their fair share. I don't know politics, or details, but i do know that much.

HG Wells wrote that each person on the planet should be able to spend the first 21 years of their life in education and work, and then be free to spend the rest of their lives in whatever manner they chose. That means i have worked 7 years too much already. And I am pissed about it.

 

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by duffistuta
Look, we're busy suspending human rights and bringing in house arrest and Brussels isn't getting in the way of that, so they're obviously right thinking at heart.

As an aside, isn't that a similar argument that the anti-federalists make against being governed from Washington? What's the difference between the US and Europe - you've got diverse languages and cultures, dirt poor States being supported by richer ones, plenty of endemic corruption and ineptitude and so on...time doesn't confer legitimacy does it?

Thanks for seeing the obvious hypocrisy here, Diff, and doing a better job of saying what I meant when I wrote in haste.

But, of course, it's less bad for a "furrner" to criticise USA than a citizen thereof. We who happen to admit that we aren't the saints and saviors of the world get chastised for being disloyal and unpatriotic, you know, love it or leave it. (I happen to love it because it is the family I was born into and there are tons of wonderful things about my family...and I left it but not because I don't love it.)

Mr Bukovsky's remarks can easily be paraphrased:

"For anyone even remotely familiar with the Soviet system, its similarity with the structures of the United States, with its governing philosophy [which I think is really pretty sound in theory but very seldom in practice. Unfortunately we are far more propaganized than most of us realize. Take that "love it or leave it" slogan, for example.] and "democracy deficit," [Who really won the election when GWB and Al Gore ran according to the way Europeans see democracy? I certainly wouldn't want to impose our system on any state, especially when money plays a far too large role in who gets elected, who gets "criminal justice" (think OJ) and who gets decent health care.] its endemic corruption [nail:head] and bureaucratic ineptitude [bureacracy in large countries seem to have the same universal problems tied to a total lack of imagination. I could tell you a horror story of a bureaucracy that slammed my buns into jail because my case didn't fit into their cubbi-hole and they refused to consider anything outside their little boxes. On the contrary, Swedish bureaucracy, with some exceptions is amazingly efficient and the people I've encountered actually seem to care about giving good service.] , is striking. ...a monster that rebuilt scores of nations into our image, redistributed the wealth of millions in pro-American big-business ways...Or is the US, indeed, simply a mirror of the USSR...?"

 

[Gyroscope]

Wait. I'm confused- aren't we trying to provoke Europeans into griping about the EU rather than get the Americans griping about the US?

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by gyroscope
Wait. I'm confused- aren't we trying to provoke Europeans into griping about the EU rather than get the Americans griping about the US?

I'm trying to do both - I'm an equal opportunities stirrer.

 

[stongle]

Interesting then that our head of Moscow trading has recently been uncovered (check it out in last months FT), as former Stasi (a nastier spin off of the KGB). No wonder we just bought back the Ukraine.

Obviously during the mid 80's the KGB figured out that tanks sucked so they infiltrated all the European Banks. Lure the yanks into a force sense of security that the Red Menace no longer existed and give some EU grants funding Autonomous Nuclear Research in say Iran or Afghanistan, thus giving the US a bigger headache they bugger off. Buy back all the former Soviet Splitters using Middle East Oil money and guess whose the winner.

I mean sh*t they even own the Worlds Greatest Football team, Chelsea.

Thanks for stating the obvious Baca, but the US got played out.

 

[Steve Morris]

Now, to bring balance to my own posts and to guarantee I get my butt kicked on both continents:

I had an admittedly naïve hope that the great EU project could be the way to bring some balance in the industrialized world so that we Americans wouldn't have to keep coming over to sort things out. I have been so sick of the abuse we have received for extending an umbrella of protection over Europe. Europe needs to take care of itself. Unfortunately the crises in the former Yugoslavia proved that Europe couldn't take care of business in its own back yard so we had to get involved in Bosnia-Herzegovina after the Euros stood by (literally in the case of one infamous incident involving Dutch "peacekeepers"; was it Banjeluka?) with their thumbs out of daylight. Then again in Kosovo.

Of course the US and NATO don't act selflessly. I think much of how we react to situations is because of the experience of the last two great wars in which it was clear that earlier action would have saved millions of lives and countless resources. So much of our overreaction to situations is from the educational effect of the Munich Accords before Germany annexed Austria and subsequently invaded Poland. I think that contributed to the gigantic mistake of America's Vietnam war and perhaps even the latest Gulf war. In part I blame Europeans and the UN for those overreactions.

Meanwhile the European approach (along with the UN) to so many crises is to "talk about it" and pass resolutions like the 15 passed after Saddam thumbed his nose. Dangerous naïveté.

So let the EU develop this continent into an alternate superpower that can stand on its own and deal with its own problems. The resources are certainly here; why should the Euros get a free ride militarily? (And I know European nations have also paid a lot expenses for NATO but why should our troops be here?).

It is also very clear that there were moments, even relatively late, that the Eastern Bloc would have popped across the borders if we had not been there and shown resolve. The plans were definitely in place.

Then about the EU: It is so irritating that there is so much foot-dragging about the project. If the UK, Sweden and Denmark weren't so pig-headed about the euro I believe the European economy would already be much better now and much more dynamic. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a little of the temporary selfish prosperity for the sake of a much better collective in the future (that shoe fits Norway even better). Then there are indications that the French, who have championed the EU concepts, might say non to the EU constitution.

Satisfied now, my dear steer?

 

[stongle]

Originally posted by Steve Morris

Then about the EU: It is so irritating that there is so much foot-dragging about the project. If the UK, Sweden and Denmark weren't so pig-headed about the euro I believe the European economy would already be much better now and much more dynamic.
Satisfied now, my dear steer?

Be very careful straying into highly complex economics, that far outweigh very flaky idealism.

You do know that once "in", there is no way out? No suck it and see approach, and that's putting it in very, very basic terms.