Ramping boards as a stock feature...

[Jon S]

Originally posted by MrPink
So how is having a 'Ramping' feature any different from setting your Debounce to 1?
Let's face it, most of the time, when a gun 'ramps' it's actually mechanical bounce acting on the switch when the ROF goes over a certain value. Timmy's, A4's, A4 Fly's, DM4's etc. all do this (and out of the box!) - yet no-one goes on a moral crusade against those markers do they?

Or is it just that SP are being honest about this issue?

Exactly, as long as its a setting you can't change in game then I see no problem with it. Angels have had all sorts of modes for donkey's now, as have many other electronic guns.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by MrPink
So how is having a 'Ramping' feature any different from setting your Debounce to 1?
Let's face it, most of the time, when a gun 'ramps' it's actually mechanical bounce acting on the switch when the ROF goes over a certain value. Timmy's, A4's, A4 Fly's, DM4's etc. all do this (and out of the box!) - yet no-one goes on a moral crusade against those markers do they?

Or is it just that SP are being honest about this issue?

Good point, although you will find quite a few people going on a moral crusade to try and stop this.

The major point is that it's easier to PROVE a gun is on DB1 because you will get multiple shots from just one slow pull.

With a ramping gun it's harder to prove because it doesn't add shots until you start achieving a certain rate of fire.

You will HAVE to have a robot. And how many local circuits and small tournaments will have one? 0

And also, to answer your question. A ramping gun is EXACTLY how the designer cheats are done that everyone has been up in arms about... why haven't people been so outraged about guns on DB1 if it's the same thing?

They should have.

I'm of the opinion that DB1 (and most adjustable debounce) should never have been allowed in the first place.

My issues with this as compared to other modes, is that it's very obvious if a gun is in these other modes (FA, Turbo, DB1 etc.)

It's obvious, it's easy to catch, easy to prove and easy to penalise. With a ramping gun it is not.

This software that is now going to come as stock IS EXACTLY the designer cheats that have been in use and being 'tested' at other people's expense in the tournament circuit etc.

Want to play 'catch me if you can'? If people honestly don't mind things like this and DB1 then that's what it's going to come down to.

 

[le-pig]

i a agree with manike,appart from debounce was orriganly started to help people stop bouncing,same markers with different set ups bolts,hammers ect will react differantly when fired.
it is easy to test if people are trying to cheat through bounce,but ramping is just plain wrong and very hard to test on field

 

[dnafwtbtitft]

Originally posted by le-pig
appart from debounce was orriganly started to help people stop bouncing,same markers with different set ups bolts,hammers ect will react differantly when fired.

That's what they tell you, it's what Jim Drew spouted, but it's pretty much bull****.

If you write the code properly adjustable debounce is not needed.

Adjustable debounce is there solely so you can fine tune your gun so it's legal when pulled slowly and checked, but gets extra shots when you start railing on the trigger.

It's a 'legal' way to add shots.

Adjustable debounce is NOT needed to make a fast 'legal' gun. It's just needed to make a very fast 'sketchy legal' gun.

 

[le-pig]

Originally posted by dnafwtbtitft
That's what they tell you, it's what Jim Drew spouted, but it's pretty much bull****.

If you write the code properly adjustable debounce is not needed.

Adjustable debounce is there solely so you can fine tune your gun so it's legal when pulled slowly and checked, but gets extra shots when you start railing on the trigger.

It's a 'legal' way to add shots.

Adjustable debounce is NOT needed to make a fast 'legal' gun. It's just needed to make a very fast 'sketchy legal' gun.

no its not,most hgh end markers will bounce if set up wrongly,the idea of anti bounce settings is there to help,admitadly some of these are allowed to go silly low,but any player/marshal will pick up on these anyway.ive seen markers that will go full auto on one slow trigger pull,but upp the debounce and they will not bounce at all.
from what youre saying anyone who has debounce settings on there markers are cheating or intending to cheat,which is wrong and not fair as the debounce can't be adjusted during a game

 

[manike]

Originally posted by le-pig
from what youre saying anyone who has debounce settings on there markers are cheating or intending to cheat,which is wrong and not fair as the debounce can't be adjusted during a game

It's not about accusing people who have adjustable debounce of cheating. Just because you have a gun with FA doesn't mean you are running it in that mode. It's more like that it allows you to cheat easily if you are so inclined. Same with an FA mode, you could set it up in FA if you wanted to.

As for it not being adjustable during a game... well in this country (USA) 99.9% of guns are never put into competition mode, so it's very easy to adjust that during a game.

Are they checking guns at local events and the Millennium series for the modes they are in now? They weren't when I last played. The only guns they even cared about were ones with LCD screens...

Guns without LCD's are very hard to tell what mode they are in unless you are experienced with the particular gun.

Some guns are even modified so you can't see the mode and make it even easier to adjust debounce while in a game. This is very simple to do.

Almost all WAS boards can have the debounce adjusted in game simply by failing the eyes.

Err your point was?

Originally posted by le-pig
no its not,most hgh end markers will bounce if set up wrongly,

Only because they are made to.

It's not hard to make an electronic gun that will never miss a 'real' trigger pull and that doesn't need adjustable debounce in order to do so.

Originally posted by le-pig
but upp the debounce and they will not bounce at all.

Because that's how debounce is made to work. What level was the debounce 'upped to' why wasn't it at this level originally? The essence of missing trigger pulls spaced so close apart that debounce makes a difference is mostly BS. The only real time it seems to catch 'trigger pulls' is when they weren't intentional. And even then there are legitimately better/other ways to do it. 'Debouncing' switches is something that has been done to death in the electronics industry and there are many ways to do it cleanly and quickly that do not require adjustable settings.

 

[dnafwtbtitft]

Originally posted by le-pig
admitadly some of these are allowed to go silly low,but any player/marshal will pick up on these anyway.

Yeah has anyone ever seen a gun on DB1 be legal one shot per pull? So why is it available on a board that is supposedly 'semi only'?

Why was the ability to get DB1 made harder, and then made easier again on the WAS board (you could always get it if you knew the trick...)

Why did SP make Turbo? then stop? then make 'rebound' mode?

Want to know how many players have bragged to me about using debounce at silly levels and still being able to beat the chrono judge/robot? I know one guy that even beat Dave as he handed him his gun to put on the robot.

Originally posted by le-pig
from what youre saying anyone who has debounce settings on there markers are cheating or intending to cheat,which is wrong and not fair as the debounce can't be adjusted during a game

Not accusing all people with adjustable debounce of cheating, but those that set their guns up on the ragged edge are definitely flouting the grey area. Those that cheat with debounce cheat. There's a lot of them.

Originally posted by manike
It's not about accusing people who have adjustable debounce of cheating. Just because you have a gun with FA doesn't mean you are running it in that mode. It's more like that it allows you to cheat easily if you are so inclined. Same with an FA mode, you could set it up in FA if you wanted to.

Yeah, just because you have a fast car that can go over 75mph doesn't mean you always go out intending to drive it that way.

Often you stay below the speed limit = no cheating.

Sometimes you cruise over the limit without realising = setting DB too close to the limit.

Sometimes you speed like crazy = intentionally setting DB low.

Sometime you have a radar detector and slam on the brakes when you spot the LEO = failing the eyes when they come to check your gun...

 

[le-pig]

woooahhhh

before i get proved wrong even more,i addmit i did not know about the WAS board thingy ,i also agree that a lot off markers debounce settings are silly low,both of which i dont agree with
my point was all the markers ive used,you have to take the grip frame off to adjust. the debounce,unfortunatly i did not know about the was board.
anybody who sets there marker that close to the grey area knows what there doing and deserves to be caught

 

[gaff]

debounce adjustments are easy to detect at the chrono. its the sofware ramping boards that are the ones that need finding! when you can activate the FA mode by holdig a triger pull for a set period then release it for another different set period, then you got full auto till you turn off the gun etc. these are the modes that cause most of the probs! debounce settings will be set before the game and still be there after the end of the game = easy to spot, and anyone playing with settings during the game should be spotted by marshalls anyway!

 

[Bolter]

I agree Gaff, but then you get the "Im turning the eye off" or "Im setting the timer" lame excuses.