PSP ramp allowed at Maxs Masters

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Steve Morris
Yessir, Mr Loco.

1--My theory is that if someone goes to the trouble to break or fake their tamper seal for the purpose of cheating then they will want the full monty, that is a really high ROF.

2--Since it seems that very few peepz can shoot faster than 15bps unassisted (which needs to be proven or disproven using proper devices) then a high reading (say 18bps or more) would put up a flag for a gun that needs to be checked further, perhaps with a robot.

3--Rates of fire that exceed 20 would be what I would expect from cheaters and after a few more tournaments with the 15bps cap I would expect such a shooter to stick out like a sore thumb.

4--I believe that a solid commitment from the manufacturers, active, visible monitoring, spot-checks and checking suspicious guns along with really severe penalties could help achieve our goals.

Am I totally out to lunch here?

I'd be perfectly happy with semi only rules if they could be fairly enforced. I am also perfectly happy with the current choices of the PSP and the NXL as well. 'Cause I'm easy to please. However--

1--without letting my natural cynicism respond to the tamper proof seal concept other than to say the only truly secure way to do that is with a "league board" not a manufacturers agreement, I think you're misjudging too many players. Sure, a fringe cadre of the grossly stupid may do exactly as you predict but the majority who you can't catch now will be far more subtle. Why do you think the NXL has gone to the trouble of developing their longer range directional tower mic? Answer: because there are circumstances now they can't control and where they suspect advantage is still being taken.

2--proven or disproven how, and just what are these proper devices? Hint: please don't tell me a pact unit for ROF and a robot to check for various assists cus those don't do the job now.

And as to this flag going up just how is this responded to by the officials? Is the gun noted for later check or the player pulled or what? How this is implemented matters. If you pull the player without proof you's gonna have angry teams on your hands and if you check them later you may have to assess post-game penalties that could alter on-field results. Something most leagues are trying to stay away from.

3--again descriminating against stupid people. How 'bout the two guys out of seven on the breakout shooting 20 bps for the first 5 seconds? Are you catching them with 7 guns going off together at the same time? And even if you manage to isolate the ROF of one of the 20 bps shooters what did you prove?

4--with the exception of the committment of the manufacturers how is the situation you describe any different than last year? Nor have you addressed the other factor here, the will of the league(s), to actively and forcefully enforce their own rules. Without that--and to be kind the history has been spotty at best--all the means in the world is meaningless.

 

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
So what you're suggesting is that any high rate of fire is defacto evidence of cheating?

No. I'm suggesting that a ROF that is higher than what will be shown to be humanly possible will lead us to guns that should receive further inspection. If that inspection shows a tampered-with and therefore cheating gun then heads will roll. And that inspection doesn't need to interfere with a game.

Let me ask you a question: If I monitor a suspicious gun and get readings of 50ms between shots or less should I pull the player or not?

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Steve Morris
1--No. I'm suggesting that a ROF that is higher than what will be shown to be humanly possible will lead us to guns that should receive further inspection.

2--If that inspection shows a tampered-with and therefore cheating gun then heads will roll. And that inspection doesn't need to interfere with a game.

3--Let me ask you a question: If I monitor a suspicious gun and get readings of 50ms between shots or less should I pull the player or not?

1--Well, since we're now starting to police ROF beginning with the standard of ultimate human potential I feel better. That's just plain silly, Steve. You have no way of making that determination.

2--I'm afraid this nebulous "inspection" is too generic for me. I need chapter and verse. If you're predicating all this on your tamper proof board then we're simply debating a currently non-existent hypothetical--tho I'd like to know how the "inspection" doesn't interfere with the game.
And while I'd like to grant you the tamper proof board I'm afraid I have very little faith given the current circumstances in either the leagues or the manufacturers or the teams and players.

3--Not if the rule is uncapped semi only. How many readings in a row? In a consecutive group or simply the odd anomoly?
A large percentage of the I can easily shoot 15 bps crowd are basing that notion on info derived from their markers. Can an individual on rare occasions space two shots extremely close together? Probably, but what you're after is ROF. The reason testing the gap works for the PSP/NXL is because of the cap, not because no one is capable of firing two balls above some unspecified human maximum.

 

[Steve Morris]

I'm talking about measuring the same way NXL does. And they hand out game suspensions for readings of 50ms or lower. But, of course, they have the cap. But I think we're going to know within a few months what people are really capable of shooting because the ball-counters are starting to turn up more and more. And I think we'll see that 20bps, measure the way NXL/PSP do, is humanly impossible without help.

Baca, your best point IMO is the one about the guns on break. Is there any way to get that under control?

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Steve Morris
1--I'm talking about measuring the same way NXL does. And they hand out game suspensions for readings of 50ms or lower. But, of course, they have the cap.

2--But I think we're going to know within a few months what people are really capable of shooting because the ball-counters are starting to turn up more and more. And I think we'll see that 20bps, measure the way NXL/PSP do, is humanly impossible without help.

3--Baca, your best point IMO is the one about the guns on break. Is there any way to get that under control?

1--which is why it's apples and oranges. The NXL doesn't care whether an achieved ROF is "humanly possible", only whether it is in contravention of the rules or not.
2--predicated on what exactly? How, going into your test, are you going to know any given marker is actually operating "unassisted" since you can't make that determination now?
3--I was simply demonstrating that under the best of current circumstances efforts continue and will continue to be made to gain advantage and that I do not see in any of the ideas you've offered a real rules based answer that works.

IF the tower-based directional mic can be proved to be sufficiently sensitive and the maths its operating on accurate in calculating ROF for one gun from a group of markers, then yes, but I'd like to see it demonstrated in a rigidly controlled test situation before I'd accept the results.

 

[goose]

I'm back... (or at least for this thread)

After a long self-imposed hibernation - I have resurfaced just to give my 2 cents (as usual).

The easiest/most secure way to ensure no cheater boards & a reasonable rate of fire would be as follows:

1) All board manufacturers are required to make their LEGAL programming available to whatever governing body is chosen to look after this problem.

2) All boards are manufactured with a standard data port (be it wired, infra-red, bluetooth, whatever - just something standard).

3) All the boards from any given production run (i.e. Shocker 2007 - rev. 1) when manufactured will be assigned a unique id number - this is coded onto the board/software.

4) A pda/testing tool is made available for every field at the events - this tool has a database of all the programming for each board that is approved by the series.

5) All guns prior to games (or after I don't care) will be checked with the tool - if any gun is found to have any programming other than what has been approved for that board revision (the unique id number).... well then it's penalty time.

I realize that this would cost some money - I never said it would be cheap - but it is the only 100% sure fire way to solve the problem. A hell of a lot better than trying to develop James Bond directional mikes - shooting robots - sealed boards with holgraphic logos (which can be faked) etc.

The only problem is - it would require industry support/participation/trust - and we all know how well that works......

goose

P.S. This is exactly what happens in F1 and other highly tehnical sports - you have to pass inspection and you must comply with the set standards.

P.P.S. Back into hibernation I go - peace out everyone - hope to see you soon.

 

[Steve Morris]

I do believe we have to continue this season with the cap with or without ramping ROF. What I was trying to say is that we all might learn things this season that will allow semi-only to return under much better controlled conditions, especially if the whole industry gets together to make it work. And maybe it will be shown that a ROF cap has to stay.

Perhaps what Goose is suggesting would be workable in Season 2006 if we prepare now.

 

[Intheno]

those directional mic's don't work on the ground standing next to the player. How are they going to work from the tower?

I think thats a non starter, I would be more inclined to believe that Dick Clark was going to get the NXL on TV and that all the NXL players were going to start earning big money next year, I mean last year, or was it the year before?

I want to be the guy that sells the NXL players thier cars and houses, I should be able to retire once I'm finished. I might even just be able to take the money and not actually give them the houses at all. I could just tell them that they will definitely get houses in 6 months or something...

I could make extra by tapping Sergei up last and getting him to part with his money 3 months before announcing that the houses never got built in the first place and there's been a big misunderstanding and no-one gets thier money back....

I think in any other business if you stiffed a well connected Russian for quarter of as million dollars you would expect a 'little visit'

what was I saying?
Oh yes, directional mic's, nope, not with 10/14 guns, and a cheering crowd, screaming players and a PA/music system etc you won't.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Ehmmmm...

I would be more inclined to believe that Dick Clark was going to get the NXL on TV and that all the NXL players were going to start earning big money next year, I mean last year, or was it the year before?

I want to be the guy that sells the NXL players thier cars and houses, I should be able to retire once I'm finished. I might even just be able to take the money and not actually give them the houses at all. I could just tell them that they will definitely get houses in 6 months or something...

I could make extra by tapping Sergei up last and getting him to part with his money 3 months before announcing that the houses never got built in the first place and there's been a big misunderstanding and no-one gets thier money back....

I think in any other business if you stiffed a well connected Russian for quarter of as million dollars you would expect a 'little visit'

That just completely cleared the whole issue of ramping guns at the Maxs Masters up for me.

Thanks a bunch for making the post that created a breakthrough on this issue.

Nick

P.S. - There's something on your shoulder dude........

 

[Intheno]

sorry, did you think I would have a nice little solution for you Nick?

tough XXXX mate, it ain't that easy.

This is what you could take out of my post, dumbass - Directional Mics don't work. If you don't believe me then go and do the extensive tests yourself, and waste your time and money. You should be thanking me for saving you the aggravation, but then your Scandinavian ego would never allow that.

Oh, and there's something on your shoulder too Danelord, its your arse, stop talking out of it...