Prisoners of War, War Criminals or Terrorist???

[Just Curious]

Just My Opinion....

In a lot of the previous posts, a big deal has been made of the funding the I.R.A receive from the U.S and American supporters. There also seems to be a lot of finger-pointing at America for things that have happened in Days Past. Every Nation has 'Whoppers' in their closets that they would prefer not to be mentioned BUT we are talking about the present and what should be done with the 'Terrorist' prisoners,,,Should they be granted P.O.W status?, Should they be treated like normal prisoners or should they have the bare, minimum Human Rights?

I for one think that what happened on September 11th was a great tragedy but I still maintain that an even greater tragedy is waiting around the corner.

As rightly pointed out in a previous post, we Westeners are unable to comprehend the mentality or fanaticism of the likes of El Queada or the Taliban. When they carry out a suicide-bombing they believe that a place in Heaven is already reserved for them. Personally, I think they are stupid F$$kers but hey, thats because I'm from a 'civilized and sophisticated' society with rules and Laws applicable to all.

When this 'War' on Terror was declared a promise was made by the American/British Governments that they would do all in their power to eradicate ALL terrorist groups and networks, that any Government seen to aid or harbour these groups would be 'tarred with the same brush'. As we all know, the El Queada are not the only terrorist group in the world and being Irish I will use 2 examples from my own country, the well known I.R.A and a little known group called the 'Red Hand Defenders' who have just murdered a Postman this week. Will the American/British Goverenments pursue these 'terrorists' with the same vigor as that used in Afganistan? When these 'terrorists' are captured, will they be hooded and chained and wisked of to Cuba? Will they be kept in open air cages with only the bare essentials being provided? I don't think so....can you imagine the out-cry,,,,and remember, there are numerous other terror groups throughout Europe and the rest of the World and here-in lies my point....Whatever Justice/Punishment/Treatment is given to the prisoners in Cuba at the moment, you can damn well believe that the other Muslim Countries of the World will be expecting to see the same delivered to the 'Terrorists' already on our 'doorsteps'!

The US/UK need to be very careful not to be seen making a difference because if they do, in my opinion, what has gone before will seem small-fry compared to what could happen.

Sorry for going on so much

Peace to u and yours....

 

[manike]

Just My Opinion....

Originally posted by Just Curious
The US/UK need to be very careful not to be seen making a difference because if they do, in my opinion, what has gone before will seem small-fry compared to what could happen.

I am in 100% agreement. We need to treat them all the same. Not just go after the ones that have attacked the USA.

manike

 

[Buddha 3]

hmmmm....spend an evening away from the computer and what happens.........

Okay, facts first.
The US DID try to take out ol' Saddam during desert storm. They failed. there were a number of possible locations he could be at, but not enough special weaponry to attack all of them. Unfortunately, the wrong ones were picked. (this was released a few years after the war)
As far as people who were actually there, I know a few. And from talking to them, and reading the accounts of others I have to say that what a veteran can tell you is his experience, and the way HE saw things. Most of them actually point out the lack of the larger picture. A quote: "My war was limited to ten yards to the left, and ten yards to the right of my foxhole." No offence is meant by this at all by the way. I have nothing but respect for people who are prepared to put themselves at risk for what they believe in.

Now as far as my opinion goes. The eye for an eye thing I don't reall go for. True, if someone hits me, the fool can expect a beatdown. But look at Israel. The Palestinians blow up something, the Israelis level something in return. What happens? The Palestinians only blow up more stuff! See what I'm getting at?
I fully support the attack on Al Qaida and the Taliban. For the record The US did not attack the Afghanistani people, they tried to avoid civilian casualties. But mishaps unfortunately will always happen.
What I want to know is why do the people over there hate the western society so much? What have we done? I don't believe it's all that abandoning them after the Afghan/Soviet war or after desert storm stuff, because we've been hated in that region since long before that. Could it be the enforced creation of Israel? Possibly. Colonial past? Possibly. The crusades? Possibly.
I'm not saying we are wrong, and they are right. But we must have done something bad to piss off so many people. It may well go back centuries, and now people don't even really know why we are the bad guys (in their opinions), but it is a way of thinking that has been handed down generation after generation.

Truth is we can bomb as many countries as we want to, but there will always be terrorists. Kill someone with a bomb, and his loved ones are potential terrorists. Most people in Afghanistan were happy to be liberated, but I don't think that the ones who's families were bombed by accident have any love left for the US. That's the way these things go.
By the way, please don't believe that the war was fought because of a believe in truth and justice. It was fought out of the national interest. Like most other wars. There is NO justice in war. Only death and suffering. And for that I believe in punishing those responsible for starting it, in this case Osama's posse. I do think it's silly to punish the avarage footsoldier though. Fact is that most Al Qaida troops were just troops, not trained terrorists. That was a completely different wing of the network.

The only reason humanity became the dominant species on this planet is because we are the most aggressive. So I doubt things will ever change.


Peace.

 

[tb-303]

Originally posted by crom-dubh
Actually I was in the Army when the gulf was on so I do know the picture. I have buckets of quotes about the Kurdish situation.

Just curious crom how long you were in the army? not a dig or anything i've only known you for about 8 months or so so this part of you life i know nothing about and i'm just interested.
tb-303

 

[goose]

Hey Buddha, I know what you mean. I decide to do something foolish (like go to sleep) and this turns into the "Mother of all discussions".

As far as the Israeli - Palestinian situation I think it has gotten to the point that it can no longer be classified as terrorist actions. IMHO because the 2 factions share a border and both operate with the more or less "approval" of their own leaders, I think it should be called what it is - a war. What happens in war between neighbours - **** gets blown up. Until both sides get a grip on their ideals then there will never be any progress made in finding a resolution to their problems.

While people are sharing their favourite "terrorist retaliation stories" I wanna tell my favourite.

During the turbulent 80's in Lebanon when basically everyone was being kidnapped and/or killed, it was a noticable statistic that there where very few Soviet kidnapped. The reason for this is not because of what a lot of people think - that the Soviets funded all the terrorists. While this may part of the reason, there was also a very well handled incident that set the tone from the Soviet side.

The whole thing started when a Soviet "diplomat" was kidnapped - like so many other foreigners during that time. Upon this action the Soviet GRU or KGB (can't remember which one) immediately went out and abducted a high ranking member of the terrorist cell that was rumoured to be responsible.

After sending him back - with his nutz stuffed in his mouth - the terrorist cell promptly released their hostage.

Now an eye for an eye does not necessarily work all the time - but damned if a pair of nutz in someones throat doesn't get peoples attention.

l8tr

goose

P.S. I would love to take y'all up on that beer - but Copenhagen to England is a little far for a couple of pints. Maybe at one of the Millenniums??

 

[Buddha 3]

Well said Goose.

About that beer, how about a Millennium halfway between England and Denmark, like Holland?

 

[Beaker]

One point that I don't understand is several people have said that Sept 11th was a declaration of war on the US.

Well, pardon my ignorance but surely the Kenyan embassy bombing, that ship bombing (forgotten the name) and Bin Laden's REPEATED public denouncements of the US including several statements years prior to 11/09/01 saying he and Al Quieda were at war with the US means it shouldn't have come as such a suprise.

Now i understand that WTC etc was an attack on an unprecedented scale but the principle is that Bin Laden and his croonies weren't exactly unknown to us and yet we took no action at all prior to this.

 

[goose]

Buddha baby, I'd love to meet for the beer except for one minor point. The 27th of May is my girlfriends birthday. I missed it last year for Mayhem - and I have been threatened with the very same treatment that the Soviets gave the terrorist - if I missed it again.

Beaker -

I agree 100%, but as with all things to do with the U.S. there are many things that "make you say hmmmm?"

Maybe with the WTC it is because it happened on U.S. soil.
Maybe it is because the victims where civilians - embassy workers & sailors know the risks.
Maybe it is because the previous attrocities happened under a Clinton gov't (not that I am blaming or putting him down - it is just a question)

Who knows why it took the US so long to wake up - but know that it finally has I am just getting a little sick of people saying - OOOhhhh they should take it easy, or now let's not go off the deep end. They should do whatever is legally at their disposal to protect their citizens from any further harm. Just because they started the race late doesn't mean they can't win.

Everyone should look at the whole thing from a different perspective:
If your loved ones where killed by a crazy rapist/murderer/theif/whatever one night when you where away from home. Would you not want the police to do everything within their power to find those responsible??

That is exactly what the US is doing, they are not summirarily executing every Al Queda member they find - thay are actually willing to give them a fair trial to determine their involvement. They will then - if found guilty and not given the death sentance - be sent to a (no doubt) special prison and live a lot better than they would have in their homeland - and at the expense of the US gov't.

Now if this is not the ultimate irony I don't know what is - the terrorisy being fed, clothed and kep alive by the American tax payers.

Just a thought.

goose

 

[Buddha 3]

Give your girlfriend a trip to Amsterdam as a present!

Anyway, that is one hell of a good statement you make there.
I've been thinking along similar lines about the second world war.
What was the Japanese motivation? They wanted to become the greatest economic power of the East Pacific. What are they now? The greatest economic power of the East Pacific.
What were the goals of the Nazis in Germany? One united Europe, The destruction of the Jewish race in Europe, and the destruction of Bolshewism (communism). Well, Europe is united (though we don't pay with Reichsmarks, but with Euroes), there are only a handfull of jews left in Europe, and communism is hardly around anymore. Plus Germany is one of the main European players in politics.
It took them some time, but they got what they wanted. We defeated their armies, but that's it. Probably one of the most flagrant cases of irony.
What's my point? Well my point is that nothing really changes except for the weather.........

The reason I said what I said about trialling the footsoldiers, is because I haven't really followed the news the last two or three days, and the last I saw is that they were being flown off to Guantanamo Bay, but no one was really sure what was going to be done with them. I looked at some news sites, and it's added a bit of a different perspective now. Although I still think you can't take every single Taliban to court. People didn't take every single German or japanese to court either.
It's a crazy world we live in. Best not to think too much about these things and just enjoy life. So enough politics! Ro0ster, I'm gonna stick my foot up your @$$ so far you'll be sh*tting size 11 for the next three weeks for starting this thread, you miserable instigator of trouble!

 

[Beaker]

Goose,

I agree with you, I think there are 2 seperate issues here.

1) is why did the Americans take so long to wake up the situation prior to the WTC and why do they (and most other western) countries not understand why we are hated so much. I for one can see why some peoples/races/countries might be envious of the power and control the "West" exerts over the world and indeed I find it a bit disconcerting at times. But I can only see, not understand, the level of reaction we so obviously provoke.

2) the issue of retaliation and the scale thereof. I think the US (and UK to a point) have done a great job of moderating their response to one which achieves the strategic goals, however falls short of out and out victimisation. I do feel though that now the Taliban have been thrown out that the we (the west) runs the risks of floggin a dead horse and if we were to continue tooo far then we will only serve to increase the re-action against us.


Another point no-one has raised is why have we been so up in arms at this "state sponsored terrorism" when the US particularly (but also a lot of western countries) have gone out of their way to fund guerilla's and uprisings against other nation states.

I feel that's a bit pot and kettle. It's fine for us to plow millions into Civil wars and terroism against someone else yet when someone does it to us we are outraged.