Pete Lets try and keep personal attacks out of this and have the decent intelligent debate that we are both capable of.
Unless the faults of the guns happened with one right at the start of the game and with the other right at the end of the game then the players using it knew what they were doing and if they didn't call themselves out then they were breaking the rules. If they stepped onto the field to play knowingly with a marker in that condition then they were cheating.
Why would a judge deliberately try and check a gun's operation if he wasn't suspect of it's use during a game? If he suspects it and proves it to be so doesn't that mean it is damn probably that is was like that during the game and therefore the rules were broken and the players with said markers were cheating?
In this case the said guns were shooting very fast. I watched them and watched a judge check them before the banning game.
I can not say 110% what happened, and neither can you Pete, we can just base our opinions on what we knowand heard and information we got from speaking to other people.
I spoke to Jack Woods about electronic boards (not the gun's in questions) and he said he has only ever seen two Angel boards that have had problems that could even be close to accounting for the conditions that happened here without having been overly fine tuned for it to occur. The chances of that happening to two guns on one team at one event? I'll let you do the maths.
Guns that have been designed for this to happen on purpose are not allowed in the Millennium series, such as the reflex autococker or the tippman RT in runaway mode. Tuning a gun to have this happen is not allowed.
I do call myself an Engineer and a damn good one at that. I know what is technically possible with markers and I've even built guns do exactly what happened in this situation to prove how easily it could be done with electronic markers. I know the chances of this happening accidently and I know how easy it is to set up a gun for this to happen such that it was hard for a judge to detect but easy to use on the field. As an engineer setting it up so it only happened when pulled hard over to the side is ideal. I'm not blinded by my want to see a pure and clean team. I'm an open minded engineer looking at the facts as I see them.
If a gun is shooting more than one ball per trigger pull and the operator knows that then under the Millenium rules it's cheating.
You think yours is more common sense? hmm... You know what they say about coincidences.
If the risk is worth the benefits people will keep chancing it and pushing the rules and falling foul of them. That's why it's great to see such high penalties for people cheating via their markers. Due to this I expect a lot more people are considering the legality of their markers. I know many people I spoke to have their guns in a condition that can allow this. Does that make it right or legal? of course not. Now those people have no excuse to know the rules and the situation. I hope they take notice before also being banned from an event.
I admire the Russians for their playing ability and I do believe they are a role model there.
I actually spoke to one of the techs and the person who has worked on their guns and set them up before. He was very sure to make clear to me the facts that he HAD checked the boards and examined the guns and that there were no extra boards or switches in the guns. He stated that it was simply a case of trigger bounce.
I asked him if a player with a gun that had trigger bounce would know it. He said that yes a player with such a trigger would be aware of it.
I asked him if a gun shooting more than one shot per intentional pull was illegal. He said yes.
I asked if trigger bounce meant the gun fired more times than intentional trigger pulls. He said yes.
That kind of summed it up for me and after discussing it with the tech in question he agreed with me that the players would know their guns were shooting in this manner BEFORE being checked by a judge and that it is very unlikely that the first instance of it happening was just when the judge decided to check the gun
We can debate this for a long time as we will never know the full facts and ultimately we will only be talking about our opinions, both of us being very strong willed and minded.
I think Matski summed it up perfectly with.
I will continue to support them as much as possible and wish them the best in future events.
manike
I do believe they are a very clean team in how they conduct themselves but in this case I believe they pushed the rules too far. And once their conduct in relation to the rules goes passed them, and they know it, then it's cheating. Now I could believe it to be a fault of the marker, that is possible, but if a player is knowingly using a gun that fires more than one shot per pull then they are cheating. Can you argue with that? If they are using such a marker on the field and it does that in play then they should stop using it in the same way that players can call themselves out if they believe their gun has gone hot.
Unless the faults of the guns happened with one right at the start of the game and with the other right at the end of the game then the players using it knew what they were doing and if they didn't call themselves out then they were breaking the rules. If they stepped onto the field to play knowingly with a marker in that condition then they were cheating.
Why would a judge deliberately try and check a gun's operation if he wasn't suspect of it's use during a game? If he suspects it and proves it to be so doesn't that mean it is damn probably that is was like that during the game and therefore the rules were broken and the players with said markers were cheating?
In this case the said guns were shooting very fast. I watched them and watched a judge check them before the banning game.
Absolutely. Neither of us can be sure. I'm voicing my opinion from what I saw and spoke to people about.
I can not say 110% what happened, and neither can you Pete, we can just base our opinions on what we knowand heard and information we got from speaking to other people.
I spoke to Jack Woods about electronic boards (not the gun's in questions) and he said he has only ever seen two Angel boards that have had problems that could even be close to accounting for the conditions that happened here without having been overly fine tuned for it to occur. The chances of that happening to two guns on one team at one event? I'll let you do the maths.
Then such guns shouldn't be so finely tuned, and rules are set up within the Millenium deliberately to make such fine tuning illegal. Are you seriously trying to tell me a player using such a marker wouldn't know it was happening? Are we that naive?
Guns that have been designed for this to happen on purpose are not allowed in the Millennium series, such as the reflex autococker or the tippman RT in runaway mode. Tuning a gun to have this happen is not allowed.
Nope I don't. I report purely for fun and as a hobby. I try to put across what I see and feel for others. I'm not a professional report and do not pretend to be.
I do call myself an Engineer and a damn good one at that. I know what is technically possible with markers and I've even built guns do exactly what happened in this situation to prove how easily it could be done with electronic markers. I know the chances of this happening accidently and I know how easy it is to set up a gun for this to happen such that it was hard for a judge to detect but easy to use on the field. As an engineer setting it up so it only happened when pulled hard over to the side is ideal. I'm not blinded by my want to see a pure and clean team. I'm an open minded engineer looking at the facts as I see them.
If a gun is shooting more than one ball per trigger pull and the operator knows that then under the Millenium rules it's cheating.
I favour a point of view that is logical understanding the facts of the case and probability of such failures and conditions being accidental, whereas you favour the chance of two guns being accidentally in an illegal state (trigger bounce is illegal under any circumstances) at one tournament, in one game, and on one team...
You think yours is more common sense? hmm... You know what they say about coincidences.
When you see a player one for oned for playing on do you never see them do it again? I wish! When a player gets caught wiping and is three for oned do you think that player will never do it again? get real!
If the risk is worth the benefits people will keep chancing it and pushing the rules and falling foul of them. That's why it's great to see such high penalties for people cheating via their markers. Due to this I expect a lot more people are considering the legality of their markers. I know many people I spoke to have their guns in a condition that can allow this. Does that make it right or legal? of course not. Now those people have no excuse to know the rules and the situation. I hope they take notice before also being banned from an event.
Actually you know what that's exactly what I am doing. I am going after the real cheats who are doing things which normally they can get away with. I believe people cheating with their markers for performance benefits wether it is hot guns or FA are getting a serious advantage and therefore ARE the real cheats. I discussed this with many people in Portugal and they all thought that FA on the break of a game and at certain instances would be a huge advantage.
I admire the Russians for their playing ability and I do believe they are a role model there.
I've watched the Russian Legion play many times and from very close quarters, that's one advantage of being on the field with them and I can honestly say I have never seen them cheat in the way they play the game, but I have several times wondered about their guns and how fast they were, but to be blind to the fact that they might or that they did in this case is very close minded and doesn't seem like how a reporter should act does it? Shouldn't a reporter be open minded enough to see what was possible rather than categorically stating that they did not intend to cheat as you did?
I take it therefore that you did? I would like to hear what Sergei said and what you found when you examined their guns such that you could be so sure they weren't illegally fine tuned...
I actually spoke to one of the techs and the person who has worked on their guns and set them up before. He was very sure to make clear to me the facts that he HAD checked the boards and examined the guns and that there were no extra boards or switches in the guns. He stated that it was simply a case of trigger bounce.
I asked him if a player with a gun that had trigger bounce would know it. He said that yes a player with such a trigger would be aware of it.
I asked him if a gun shooting more than one shot per intentional pull was illegal. He said yes.
I asked if trigger bounce meant the gun fired more times than intentional trigger pulls. He said yes.
That kind of summed it up for me and after discussing it with the tech in question he agreed with me that the players would know their guns were shooting in this manner BEFORE being checked by a judge and that it is very unlikely that the first instance of it happening was just when the judge decided to check the gun
We can debate this for a long time as we will never know the full facts and ultimately we will only be talking about our opinions, both of us being very strong willed and minded.
I think Matski summed it up perfectly with.
That's it. None of us can state categorically that they did not intend to cheat or that they did. The millenium rules found them guilt of an infringement and punished them. That's the end of it in my book.
I will continue to support them as much as possible and wish them the best in future events.
manike
