Paintball: We’ve Got a Problem!

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Missy Q
Fifa, non profit, thats a good one!!!

Non-profit doesn't mean it doesn't make money. Non-profit means the organization isn't controlled by a particular entity through property rights, and thus the profits supposedly benefit the goals of the organization as opposed to the goals of an owner.

That'sthe model, anyway. More importantly, what it does mean is that the participants of the sport can ultimately cause change in the leadership of the organization. It would take a lot for that to realisticallyhappen in most cases, but it (along with some nice laws) is enough to keep most people honest.

 

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Robbo
I invested that money and time because we all believed the mainstream TV bandwagon was just around the corner, and with no disrespect intended to anyone, it feels like we are chasing rainbows.

That's another reason NPPL (and NXL) will not be able to deliver on TV. Mainstream TV support happens when there's mainstream advertising support. The paintball industry itself does not have enough money to support mainstream TV. No sport does - that money comes from outside the industry.

Companies outside the industry are not going to seriously back a league that is controlled by someone who may be more interested in selling their own products than they are in selling the sponsor's products. One thing that IS in common with all other major broadcast sports is that the manufacturers and the leagues are separate. This was one of the major changes that had to happen before bmx/snowboarding/surfing/etc made it.

Just look at the NXL show last year - the show sucked ass, but the Gardners still managed to put their energy into what was really important: Making sure their product got mentioned plenty of times.

 

[4fuxake]

Cheap shot at Zap missy, you just lost all your recently acquired points of deference. I used to work for the guy you talk of those 8 years ago and know why it happened. That seller has moved on and been fired from three other paints since those days.
Zap did then, and still do now, assist everything in the industry below the NPPL and Millennium as well as being platinum sponsors in both those series. Respect or recognition cost nothing and you just verified my point, no matter what you do someone will just be nasty.

 

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Gyroscope
The only problem I see is that it doesn't matter to the NPPL, does it? Why do they need to negotiate when they seem so certain of winning any competition between series? They can draw on money made in the US to support a fight in Europe indefinitely. The Mill has no such cash source. This explains the NPPL's beligerent offers in the past, no?

I don't think NPPL has as much money stateside as people think they have. They do have a chunk WDP-side though.

 

[Missy Q]

4fuxsake dont take me the wrong way (see what I did there).
Zap were not the issue, just the guy who set up on a pub car-park to save 500 quid. I mean there's no defending that. Zap as a company are golden, thier UK minions not so, in my opinion. Do I get my points back young man?

Chicago, I know what you meant, if you knew a bit more about the corruption that is rife within Fifa you would have chosen a better example, thats all. Please remember that the NPPL is actually an independant organisation. Pure is also now independant (fiercely so actually) but I understand why people don't see it that way. Closed minds and all that, particularly within the industry. As far as the TV thing goes, it really depends what the deal is. If its a deal where you have to sell your own ad slots, then you are right. But thats one of many deals, some are better than that. It all depends on the product. The power is always in the product, never more so than in TV world.

Pete, interesting you should mention the word Hydra in the same sentence as Laurent, as he has turned out to be a bit of a snake to be honest. You remember the snake in 'Jungle Book'? The 'Trust in me' guy? To have laurent head up the MS negotiations is like dousing the 'boy that cried wolf' in kerosine and throwing him on the fire. I'm afraid you have suggested no avenue that has not been previously/recently travelled. If the resolution you are looking for is ever going to happen, you would need to bark up the other tree mate, although I fear the wheels are already in motion.
I get your post, but have one question. Would the team get the same sponsorship if they didn't play the NPPL. Would they have the same Kudos and respect in the UK if they stayed in Europe and didn't mix it with the big-boys. Would one of the other UK pro teams, if playing the NPPL, get the richer spoils? I don't know the answer to that but my gut tells me that playing the NPPL is a vital part of any pro team, and is particularly important to the European teams that play it. It is the thing that sets them apart. Its the bragging rights, its the thousand yard stare, its the experience the veterans have and that every other team envies, its the strut. Know what I mean? I don't think you or the team would or could go without it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would be genuinely suprised if I was.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Missy Q
1--Would one of the other UK pro teams, if playing the NPPL, get the richer spoils?

2--I don't know the answer to that but my gut tells me that playing the NPPL is a vital part of any pro team, and is particularly important to the European teams that play it. It is the thing that sets them apart. Its the bragging rights, its the thousand yard stare, its the experience the veterans have and that every other team envies, its the strut. Know what I mean? I don't think you or the team would or could go without it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would be genuinely suprised if I was.

1--for just surviving relegation without making any particular "noise" throughout a given season? I don't think so. Not in the likely coming contraction. The nascent problem already exists in the pro ranks between the haves and the have nots and it's only likely to get worse. As it stands now there are teams in The 18 I would wager money on being unable to fulfill the 7 event obligation next season without something changing fairly dramatically--and they aren't all Euros.
To my mind the critical idea Pete introduced in a prior post is the changing nature of Pro paintball and teams. He called it a business and it is rapidly becoming one--for the teams. (I have just finished a View on this subject so it's one I've been thinking about lately and also pertains to my own team and its fortunes and future.) This is necessitating a different kind of thinking, preparation and impacts planning and goals among other things. (Doesn't mean that everyone isn't trying to win--cus they are--but it complicates the decision-making process enormously.)

2--all the elements you mention here are legit--in the old paradigm--but are in some respects peripheral considerations in the new Paintball as business universe of the Pros. And I suspect that in the NPPL/PP model where the "benefits" to the teams is (seemingly) a by association or trickle down model they are gonna have to re-think that pretty soon.

And, yes, this is only tangentially related to the thread topic so is probably a thread-jack of sorts.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Missy Q
Pete, interesting you should mention the word Hydra in the same sentence as Laurent, as he has turned out to be a bit of a snake to be honest. You remember the snake in 'Jungle Book'? The 'Trust in me' guy? To have laurent head up the MS negotiations is like dousing the 'boy that cried wolf' in kerosine and throwing him on the fire. I'm afraid you have suggested no avenue that has not been previously/recently travelled. If the resolution you are looking for is ever going to happen, you would need to bark up the other tree mate, although I fear the wheels are already in motion.
I get your post, but have one question. Would the team get the same sponsorship if they didn't play the NPPL. Would they have the same Kudos and respect in the UK if they stayed in Europe and didn't mix it with the big-boys. Would one of the other UK pro teams, if playing the NPPL, get the richer spoils? I don't know the answer to that but my gut tells me that playing the NPPL is a vital part of any pro team, and is particularly important to the European teams that play it. It is the thing that sets them apart. Its the bragging rights, its the thousand yard stare, its the experience the veterans have and that every other team envies, its the strut. Know what I mean? I don't think you or the team would or could go without it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would be genuinely suprised if I was.

I have to treat people as I find Missy and Laurent has never turned me over and neither have u but someone close to you has, and you know exactly what I am talking about here but none of this is really relevant mate is it because we are talking about the best interests of Europe here, not me, you, PP or Millennium.
And as such we need to move past what has happened before tho I do concede it is sometimes hard (that's the reason I resigned from rules committee as u well know) and I don't know how Laurent has upset u, but I will ask him anyway

What other tree?
The PSP you mean?
And if you do, the wheels ain't set in motion for that tree, more like a branch of that tree that has fallen off
And I’m pretty sure it's not a Trojan horse either!!!!!

The other question re Nexus, the NPPL and our sponsor portfolio, I have to say, I don't think it would be affected at all but certainly some of the things you mention need to be factored in.
Nexus are now known throughout the US mainly because of PGi and the NPPL and yes, we love playing in the NPPL, you know we do but sooner or later Europe needs to create its own destiny independent of the US and one of the sacrifices we may have to make at some stage would be giving it up Stateside.
At the moment, I can't see it happening for various reasons, some of which I am sure you must be aware of but it will happen eventually, make no mistake about that !!!

But all that stuff re 1000 yd stare, kudos, envy etc, maybe you’re right, u just maybe right.
And if you are, the question for me would have to be, do I sacrifice all that to become a better team (because I no doubt would if I could free up those NPPL resources) or do I go get the kudos, stare for a thousand yards and make other teams envious?

 

[Missy Q]

I agree with you Loco about the business thing, and its clearly no accident that your team do it better than any other. I am always impressed by the fact that those guys set up a booth, stick around to staff it, and generally behave professionally. More teams need to do this, I don't know why they don't, perhaps they just haven't sussed it out, but teams need to grow a fan base. That fan base needs to be able to buy merchandise and gear from the team entity. The teams just have to approach thier sponsors, get them to make bespoke team gear, insist that they sell it themselves, and then market the fxck out of themselves at local events/fields as the local Pro team. The bigger the fan base, the bigger the revenue stream. The team doesn't even have to win. Rage have a huge fan base. I met a family in Denver that had taken thier kids there to support them, just because they were from Florida. If they got off thier arses and sold them stuff they would do very well. The city association is a key factor in this. Many teams dismiss it as a worthless tag or simply a gimmick, it isn't. Its an opportunity.

Pete, the other tree I was refering to was the MS. You can lead a whole herd of horses to water, but if they ain't thirsty, they won't play ball. For a year there were promises made and PP were happily heading down the road to european harmony. Unfortunately Laurent kinda likes that fence-post jammed up his jacksie, so is not able to make a clear path for himself. I feel he would be the worst possible figure-head, not because he isn't talented or smart, he certainly is, but he wants to sell ad-space and fields. Among his customers are the PSP and the NPPL. His advertisers are the companies behind these leagues. How can the guy make a decision without considering that? How can he do whats best for the 'greater good' if it conflicts with his own agenda? You could argue the same of most paintball organisations I suppose, but unfortunately thats the industry we are in. We are too small to have an independant organisation, because the money for that organisation would have to come from within, and as soon as it does, there are loyalties that cannot be ignored.
Another thing I noticed in Denver. The UK teams don't even show up court-side to support each other. The yank teams have thier little animosities, but at the millennium they generally cheer each other on and find a kind of solidarity that the Euro teams miss. I actually think the European teams WANT their European counterparts to lose. Thats crazy, and if the team/business model is the way forward, which it certainly could be, you guys are at a disadvantage from the start.

ps - glad you both liked the thousand yard stare reference, I was particularly happy with that one...

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Missy Q
Pete, the other tree I was refering to was the MS. You can lead a whole herd of horses to water, but if they ain't thirsty, they won't play ball. For a year there were promises made and PP were happily heading down the road to european harmony. Unfortunately Laurent kinda likes that fence-post jammed up his jacksie, so is not able to make a clear path for himself. I feel he would be the worst possible figure-head, not because he isn't talented or smart, he certainly is, but he wants to sell ad-space and fields. Among his customers are the PSP and the NPPL. His advertisers are the companies behind these leagues. How can the guy make a decision without considering that? How can he do whats best for the 'greater good' if it conflicts with his own agenda? You could argue the same of most paintball organisations I suppose, but unfortunately thats the industry we are in. We are too small to have an independant organisation, because the money for that organisation would have to come from within, and as soon as it does, there are loyalties that cannot be ignored.
Another thing I noticed in Denver. The UK teams don't even show up court-side to support each other. The yank teams have thier little animosities, but at the millennium they generally cheer each other on and find a kind of solidarity that the Euro teams miss. I actually think the European teams WANT their European counterparts to lose. Thats crazy, and if the team/business model is the way forward, which it certainly could be, you guys are at a disadvantage from the start.

ps - glad you both liked the thousand yard stare reference, I was particularly happy with that one...

You already answer one of your own problems mate in that you readily acknowledge the incestuous nature of our business and admit that most people have this multiplicity of hats anyway and with that in mind, the reason I chose Laurent was purely because he is the Millennium’s best promoter.
And we need better promoted and better located tournaments.
In fact Missy, it works against my interest to even suggest him because of the Faceful connection but self-interest didn’t get in the way of what I thought was right, a feature that seems to be so frikkin lacking in modern day Paintball.

And Missy, you know as well as I do that bringing up the Brits lack of support for each other has absolutely nothing to do with anything we are talking about here.
Nexus’s performances have sod all to do with the Tigers and or Shockwave supporting us or not, we walk on that field and the business is done there and then regardless of who is watching.
And I have to say things are improving in that area anyway.
And part of the discontent that was created between Tigers and Nexus was created by you guys when you fcuked up with the naming issue so it seems ironic you bring that up.
Nah, come on Missy, you gotta do better than that mate if you wanna try to convince me of any disadvantage us Euros face when playing the NPPL that is outside of what I have mentioned already.
PS Would u deal with another rep for the Millennium or is it too late?

 

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Missy Q
Chicago, I know what you meant, if you knew a bit more about the corruption that is rife within Fifa you would have chosen a better example, thats all. Please remember that the NPPL is actually an independant organisation. Pure is also now independant (fiercely so actually) but I understand why people don't see it that way.

OK, I did not mean independent. I mean, responsible to the players/sport.

Here's the rub: Dynasty makes a bunch of money from going to these events. I imagine some of the other pro teams are becoming profitable as well.

How long before they figure out they don't need to pay NPPL/PP to run the events when they could hire someone to do it and split the profits amongst the teams?

Below the Pro level, how long before teams figure out that they can hire someone to run the events, and spread what used to be profit around as cheaper entry fees?


The problem with the NPPL/PP model is it doesn't work at either level - they want your money, but they don't want to give you any say in what is done with it. There are plenty of alternative league structures where people can get some control over how the money is spent when they pay their money, and especially at the amateur level, that's the way pretty much all sports end up.


You need a system that is independent fromthe manufdacturers so that out-of-industry interests will invest in it. And you need a system that's responsible to the teams, so that the teams will participate in it. If you don't have those two ingredients, you're just in a fight to hold on as long as you can until somebody else figures that out.