NXL is dead, long live the NXL
- Thread starter Chicago
- Start date
My sister plays Ultimate Frisbee. Her whole summer season cost $50. Their locations are "Any flat piece of grass", they ref themselves, and the winners get the congratualtions of other teams and maybe a trophy at the end of the season. It's all run by a non-profit organization of volunteers who like Ultimate Frisbee, and, perhaps more importantly, a chance to meet new people and drink.
Paintball is expensive both because it's an expensive sport to run (putting up fields, providing air, etc) and because the players insist on running it in an expensive manner - requiring 10 judges to be hired to enforce rules, bitching if someone doesn't give them fruit and water, expecting thousands of dollars in prizes for winning the LOWEST division, sometimes even at LOCAL events.
I would bet at this point that NPPL probably makes money. PSP is probably break-even, or at the very least, the losses are small enough that the owners tolerate them so they can sel product at events. But turning a real profit is going to require money from outside the industry.
And that's the REAL problem. The REAL problem is that the manufcturers, who also control the leagues, think they are going to make a killing from the leagues. This is silly.
The manufacturers need to realize that they are NEVER going to make money from the leagues. They need to give the leagues away, and let the league get itself on TV and hit a wide audience free of the chains of manufacturer interference, and then the manufacturers can make a killing on what manufacturers SHOULD make a killing on: Product.
Nick's pretty much got it right - we're not going to get anywhere until the manufacturers are the manufacturers, the players are the players, and the league is the league. As long as anybody is more than one of those, we're just going to continue to battle ourselves into irrelevance.
There are plenty of companies outside the industry that would LOVE to be involved inpaintball. They just don't see a way to do it without getting burnt.
Paintball is expensive both because it's an expensive sport to run (putting up fields, providing air, etc) and because the players insist on running it in an expensive manner - requiring 10 judges to be hired to enforce rules, bitching if someone doesn't give them fruit and water, expecting thousands of dollars in prizes for winning the LOWEST division, sometimes even at LOCAL events.
I would bet at this point that NPPL probably makes money. PSP is probably break-even, or at the very least, the losses are small enough that the owners tolerate them so they can sel product at events. But turning a real profit is going to require money from outside the industry.
And that's the REAL problem. The REAL problem is that the manufcturers, who also control the leagues, think they are going to make a killing from the leagues. This is silly.
The manufacturers need to realize that they are NEVER going to make money from the leagues. They need to give the leagues away, and let the league get itself on TV and hit a wide audience free of the chains of manufacturer interference, and then the manufacturers can make a killing on what manufacturers SHOULD make a killing on: Product.
Nick's pretty much got it right - we're not going to get anywhere until the manufacturers are the manufacturers, the players are the players, and the league is the league. As long as anybody is more than one of those, we're just going to continue to battle ourselves into irrelevance.
There are plenty of companies outside the industry that would LOVE to be involved inpaintball. They just don't see a way to do it without getting burnt.
While I agree with the utopic principle, I find it hard to come to terms with the general concept of working your bxllocks off to create something, and then giving it away just as it starts to make sense. I also do not think the NPPL could be in better hands than Pure promotions at the moment. Here are a group of people who want it to be successful and are prepared to invest and re-invest to make it so.
In San Diego there is a full-on Music festival at the event. 2 Stages, nationally recognised bands, sponsored by outside companies. This is being promoted laterally, with little reference to paintball. The bands chosen are ones with followings, and the idea is to have a lot of people show up at the event. The event itself is running from 11am through 9pm. This is to drive evening spectators to teh venue (lets face it, paintball venues are ghost-towns in the AM).
The talk is great, but you are lacking:
a. Someone that wants to do it
b. Someone who is neutral to the extent people are asking for
c. Money
d. Someone with the idea's and vision to steer the ship
e. Someone with the respect and general nouse to drive the project.
f. Infrastructure (and all that entails...)
I don't want to take the wind out of your sails, but none of you want to do anything but talk about it. No disrespect intended, but I don't feel that if all the people saying "it needs to be independant' on here got together, you would have what it takes to pull it off.
It could be that the NPPL does make money now. That does not mean that it is in the black. Just to play into the evening in SD and provide the lighting needed to prevent squeals is likely to cost $20-$30g. My opinion is that if the leagues were run by the players next year we would be back in the woods by the 2nd event, and the first event definitely would NOT be in HB. The flagship event would be the first to go. The NPPL is lucky to be able to hold on to this veue and has to jump through some ridiculous hoops. One PSP event there would be the end of it. One 'player run' event there would be disastrous, they would end up owing the city 10's of thousands of dollars.
Unfortunately people will keep thinking its easy. There are around 10 full time staff working to get these events set. The inrastructre involved is frightening.
But anyway, keep talking, maybe you CAN get quality trustworthy people to work the project. Maybe you can get the investors and capital needed to set it up.
Chicago, I am surprised by how 'off the play' you are.
"until the league is the league"
Again, I direct you to the cold facts of business. Leagues arn't born in some kind of Genetic food lab, they are grafted out of hard work, commitment, and investment. But then maybe you do have a point, lets try it:
The World will not be a safer place until guns and weapons of mass destruction are eradicated. We need a World Police Force unaligned to any one super-power or state who is going to tell all the countries that they have to disarm.
you know what, that might just work, now all I need is someone to make it happen, and that peson can't want to make any money, because that wouldn't be fair, instead they need to be independantly funded by 'big outside sponsors'.
I take it all back. It's Genius...
In San Diego there is a full-on Music festival at the event. 2 Stages, nationally recognised bands, sponsored by outside companies. This is being promoted laterally, with little reference to paintball. The bands chosen are ones with followings, and the idea is to have a lot of people show up at the event. The event itself is running from 11am through 9pm. This is to drive evening spectators to teh venue (lets face it, paintball venues are ghost-towns in the AM).
The talk is great, but you are lacking:
a. Someone that wants to do it
b. Someone who is neutral to the extent people are asking for
c. Money
d. Someone with the idea's and vision to steer the ship
e. Someone with the respect and general nouse to drive the project.
f. Infrastructure (and all that entails...)
I don't want to take the wind out of your sails, but none of you want to do anything but talk about it. No disrespect intended, but I don't feel that if all the people saying "it needs to be independant' on here got together, you would have what it takes to pull it off.
It could be that the NPPL does make money now. That does not mean that it is in the black. Just to play into the evening in SD and provide the lighting needed to prevent squeals is likely to cost $20-$30g. My opinion is that if the leagues were run by the players next year we would be back in the woods by the 2nd event, and the first event definitely would NOT be in HB. The flagship event would be the first to go. The NPPL is lucky to be able to hold on to this veue and has to jump through some ridiculous hoops. One PSP event there would be the end of it. One 'player run' event there would be disastrous, they would end up owing the city 10's of thousands of dollars.
Unfortunately people will keep thinking its easy. There are around 10 full time staff working to get these events set. The inrastructre involved is frightening.
But anyway, keep talking, maybe you CAN get quality trustworthy people to work the project. Maybe you can get the investors and capital needed to set it up.
Chicago, I am surprised by how 'off the play' you are.
I am baffled by this. If, for example, WDP's goal was to make a killing, do you not think they could have done something else, rather than establish Pure Promotions and try to put on the best paintball events possible? I mean, they could have made a mask, loader and set up a paint facility with the money invested in the league. Now THAT would have made a killing.
"until the league is the league"
Again, I direct you to the cold facts of business. Leagues arn't born in some kind of Genetic food lab, they are grafted out of hard work, commitment, and investment. But then maybe you do have a point, lets try it:
The World will not be a safer place until guns and weapons of mass destruction are eradicated. We need a World Police Force unaligned to any one super-power or state who is going to tell all the countries that they have to disarm.
you know what, that might just work, now all I need is someone to make it happen, and that peson can't want to make any money, because that wouldn't be fair, instead they need to be independantly funded by 'big outside sponsors'.
I take it all back. It's Genius...
If you thik WDP started NPPL for any reason other than profit, I think you're nuts. Maybe not profit off of the league directly, but profit laterally from having control (or not having their competition control) the league. EVERYTHING NPPL does is about control, control, and control. Jus talk to anyone who has ever had a Feeder Series discussion with them, like Bunkerfest or EXP.
As for venues like Huntington Beach - who cares? Lose 'em. They are expensive venues that do little in the way of providing a good venue for competition.
We need two things:
A general league geared towards fair competition for anybody who wants to play, where the money goes for things like REFFING and not bands. Yes, it's cool that a bunch of people who come to see a concert might see some paintball, but it is a slow, expensive, stupid way to try and market the sport.
Second, a "Pro" league that is your "public face" for the sport. You run ONE field with the best teams and put all your money into making a good program out of it. One field of top officials, top players, and top production crew.
If bringing paintball to the general public is your goal, events like Huntington Beach are just a distraction. If providing "paintball tourism" is your goal, the events like Huntington Beach are perfect.
As for venues like Huntington Beach - who cares? Lose 'em. They are expensive venues that do little in the way of providing a good venue for competition.
We need two things:
A general league geared towards fair competition for anybody who wants to play, where the money goes for things like REFFING and not bands. Yes, it's cool that a bunch of people who come to see a concert might see some paintball, but it is a slow, expensive, stupid way to try and market the sport.
Second, a "Pro" league that is your "public face" for the sport. You run ONE field with the best teams and put all your money into making a good program out of it. One field of top officials, top players, and top production crew.
If bringing paintball to the general public is your goal, events like Huntington Beach are just a distraction. If providing "paintball tourism" is your goal, the events like Huntington Beach are perfect.
once again your lack of understanding undermines your argument my fine Chicagoan friend.
The bands don't cost money. The show is separate, yet still organised by PP. Companies want to sponsor concerts. There are large companies sponsoring this. The same companies do not want to sponsor a paintball event. Introducing a melding of the two to these sponsors is a tactic used to entice out-of-industry sponsors across the fence into the painball arena. It also brings crowds. There are important people attending the event and PP want to show them a festival style event with a large attendance of potential customers meeting thier demographic. As an industry person I maybe assume too much of you, but surely you understand this?
Do you think the NBA or other sporting leagues would allow small events to use thier shxt without control of standards? No. You cry for professionalism and then you reject it. Where is the fluidity in your argument?
If you fail to see the importance of having paintball at venues like HB then once again, I am baffled. That kind of exposure is price-less. And besides that, ask the teams if they want to get rid of that event. Ask the players you feel should have a say in everything. If they had thier say I doubt a single one would agree with you. Again you contradict previous statements.
One more thing, what do you know about the expense of HB? You claim it is an expensive venue. I would let that go from most, but as usual, I find myself asking you to add some substance to your argumment. Perhaps that venue is the cheapest. Perhaps HB subsidise the event? As you have no idea, you are incapable of making your statements. Please stick with uninformed assumptions, or you will be adding yet more disclaimers to your signature.
As for 'your' idea of the pro showcase. I believe that is what all 3 major leagues are already doing. Did you get out of your time machine early again? Were you headed for 2001?
And you never said anything about the World Police! You don't think that's got legs? Why wouldn't anyone be interested in that? Because it's unrealistic/non-viable? Hmmm...
Lastly. WDP didn't start NPPL. They started Pure Promotions. You really should pay more attention in class...
The bands don't cost money. The show is separate, yet still organised by PP. Companies want to sponsor concerts. There are large companies sponsoring this. The same companies do not want to sponsor a paintball event. Introducing a melding of the two to these sponsors is a tactic used to entice out-of-industry sponsors across the fence into the painball arena. It also brings crowds. There are important people attending the event and PP want to show them a festival style event with a large attendance of potential customers meeting thier demographic. As an industry person I maybe assume too much of you, but surely you understand this?
Do you think the NBA or other sporting leagues would allow small events to use thier shxt without control of standards? No. You cry for professionalism and then you reject it. Where is the fluidity in your argument?
If you fail to see the importance of having paintball at venues like HB then once again, I am baffled. That kind of exposure is price-less. And besides that, ask the teams if they want to get rid of that event. Ask the players you feel should have a say in everything. If they had thier say I doubt a single one would agree with you. Again you contradict previous statements.
One more thing, what do you know about the expense of HB? You claim it is an expensive venue. I would let that go from most, but as usual, I find myself asking you to add some substance to your argumment. Perhaps that venue is the cheapest. Perhaps HB subsidise the event? As you have no idea, you are incapable of making your statements. Please stick with uninformed assumptions, or you will be adding yet more disclaimers to your signature.
As for 'your' idea of the pro showcase. I believe that is what all 3 major leagues are already doing. Did you get out of your time machine early again? Were you headed for 2001?
And you never said anything about the World Police! You don't think that's got legs? Why wouldn't anyone be interested in that? Because it's unrealistic/non-viable? Hmmm...
Lastly. WDP didn't start NPPL. They started Pure Promotions. You really should pay more attention in class...
I am staggered by this. I played the last two HB's and before Paris, they were the two best events i have even played at. The venue did not make it hard to play, it was a superb venue.
Can anyone not play the NPPL? I think its a perfect way to market the sport. Tag it onto a more popular mainstream activity, and let interest increase in tandem. Sounds like a sound business plan to me. Take a less widespread sport, and associate it with something that is hugely popular...... Like Denver last year, with the Warped Tour, there were thousands of concert goers who were exposed to Paintball, many of whom stayed to watch games in the bleachers before and after the concert
Thats what the NPPL have done with the top 18 league, admittedly its 2 fields, but who cares?Top judges, top players, and a great program of games.
I would have though t HB was perfect for bringing paintball to the public.....ESPECIALLY when compared to the venues that the PSP choose to hold events at.......Nemacolin.....
Gah, you're missing my point.
There's nothing wrong with NPPL, or Huntington beach - NPPL is great - at everything EXCEPT bringing the sport to TV.
If that's your goal, you need to focus less on things like bands and being on a beach and more on things like putting together a good production. Get in, do your event right, film it right, get out, edit, show. Everything else is a distraction.
You have to decide what your priority is. Are you putting on a concert/entertainment spectacle, or are you putting on a sporting event? NPPL puts on excellent conceertn/entertainment spectacles that are certainly enjoyed by players - as evidenced by them selling out all the time. But they're NOT putting on something that will make a good television production, and I don't care what anyone says, a couple million viewers on NBC on a Saturday beats the hell out of Huntington Beach.
And yes, putting 5 or 6 fields on huntington beach is expensive, when you onsider that you could put one field somewhere else, and put together a good television program. It wouldn't be an entertainment spetacle to anyone in attenence, but nobody watching on TV is ggoing to know the difference. They don't care what bands were playing nearby, they care if the program is interesting.
There's nothing wrong with NPPL, or Huntington beach - NPPL is great - at everything EXCEPT bringing the sport to TV.
If that's your goal, you need to focus less on things like bands and being on a beach and more on things like putting together a good production. Get in, do your event right, film it right, get out, edit, show. Everything else is a distraction.
You have to decide what your priority is. Are you putting on a concert/entertainment spectacle, or are you putting on a sporting event? NPPL puts on excellent conceertn/entertainment spectacles that are certainly enjoyed by players - as evidenced by them selling out all the time. But they're NOT putting on something that will make a good television production, and I don't care what anyone says, a couple million viewers on NBC on a Saturday beats the hell out of Huntington Beach.
And yes, putting 5 or 6 fields on huntington beach is expensive, when you onsider that you could put one field somewhere else, and put together a good television program. It wouldn't be an entertainment spetacle to anyone in attenence, but nobody watching on TV is ggoing to know the difference. They don't care what bands were playing nearby, they care if the program is interesting.
Agreed Chi, personally playing on TV is not that important to me. I would prefer to play at an event where the spectacle is as big as it can be, with side attractions like tha bands, and the whole atmosphere.
If the event was solely for the purposes of getting a great TV show out of it, i personally feel that the way you suggest is perfectly correct, however for me would feel like far too much of a manufactured atmosphere. I would much rather play in front of 5000 fans all backing the other team (as happened to us every game in HB and Tampa) than at a venue custom arranged for TV
I guess it all centers on what the main priorities of the promoter and players are. I would think that they would be different though, as they always tend to be
If the event was solely for the purposes of getting a great TV show out of it, i personally feel that the way you suggest is perfectly correct, however for me would feel like far too much of a manufactured atmosphere. I would much rather play in front of 5000 fans all backing the other team (as happened to us every game in HB and Tampa
) than at a venue custom arranged for TVI guess it all centers on what the main priorities of the promoter and players are. I would think that they would be different though, as they always tend to be
if the bench-mark for failing to get the NPPL on TV is having 2 consecutive years on Fox running through Christmas then what would be considered success? Prime-time daily at 8pm right before American Idol? In that case yes, total failure. When you get off that cloud you're on maybe you could call Donald Trump and see if he can change 'The Apprentice''s air-time slots around so we can get it on there instead.
reality is a phenomonon we all have to deal with, and while I like to dream about this sort of thing as much as anyone else, Pure promotions have had thier first 2 seasons broadcast nationally, and that, in my opinion, is great going. If they acheive their goals for this season, then additional and major progress will have been made.
It would certainly be cheaper to put up one field and just have the pro's play. xxxx everyone else, they aren't important. Is that what you are advocating? What about he players, isn't that what all this is about? Just checking...
reality is a phenomonon we all have to deal with, and while I like to dream about this sort of thing as much as anyone else, Pure promotions have had thier first 2 seasons broadcast nationally, and that, in my opinion, is great going. If they acheive their goals for this season, then additional and major progress will have been made.
It would certainly be cheaper to put up one field and just have the pro's play. xxxx everyone else, they aren't important. Is that what you are advocating? What about he players, isn't that what all this is about? Just checking...