Millenniumrule 19.6 is BAD
- Thread starter drhp
- Start date
So is the procedure that Joern has to do the rule changes by himself, is there no rules committee or sounding board to test the rules out on.
It looks like this forum is acting as the sounding board, which is a little scary.
I think there is a problem with quite a few of the rules in the new version (1.2) I picked up on about 10 rules in the first half of the book that had some sort of problem.
Particularly though I think some of the rules are contradictory.
Rule 10.1 contradicts 18.2 as I can't see why I have to keep my barrel sock on once on field. This is fine by me because I don't like having to hurriedly stuff the barrel sock in my pocket as the 10-second warning is being given. But you see where this could be open to abuse.
Another one is 17.6 and the new 19.6 which seem to rule out the use of hand helds. Which takes us a 100 steps backwards? We just need to ensure the marshals calibrate their hand held with the Radar at the start of the day.
I may be miss reading things but I think the rules are wide open.
There’s a whole bunch of other stuff less significant like 12.1, why the hell is any player going to need to carry a hand towel?? other than to wipe paint off or use as padding. I think this rule used to be part of the squeegee rules which I can't see any mention of as equipment?
It goes on these are just some points to add to what’s been discussed above.
I think there should be a rules committee that agrees rule amendments and the amendments should be published for scrutiny prior to them being implemented.
Alan..............
It looks like this forum is acting as the sounding board, which is a little scary.
I think there is a problem with quite a few of the rules in the new version (1.2) I picked up on about 10 rules in the first half of the book that had some sort of problem.
Particularly though I think some of the rules are contradictory.
Rule 10.1 contradicts 18.2 as I can't see why I have to keep my barrel sock on once on field. This is fine by me because I don't like having to hurriedly stuff the barrel sock in my pocket as the 10-second warning is being given. But you see where this could be open to abuse.
Another one is 17.6 and the new 19.6 which seem to rule out the use of hand helds. Which takes us a 100 steps backwards? We just need to ensure the marshals calibrate their hand held with the Radar at the start of the day.
I may be miss reading things but I think the rules are wide open.
There’s a whole bunch of other stuff less significant like 12.1, why the hell is any player going to need to carry a hand towel?? other than to wipe paint off or use as padding. I think this rule used to be part of the squeegee rules which I can't see any mention of as equipment?
It goes on these are just some points to add to what’s been discussed above.
I think there should be a rules committee that agrees rule amendments and the amendments should be published for scrutiny prior to them being implemented.
Alan..............
you can't calibrate a hand held chrono.
no body EVER calibrates chronos, so if you're going to test guns at the 10 sec point they need to be tested against the chrono that they came onto the field against,
R
raehl
Guest
An EPA rules committee.
Getting rules changed is a pain. Nobody wants to do it at an event, and nobody wants to set aside the time to do it between events. We've been trying to redo our rules for nearly a year now (players knw some changes are in order), but when it comes to "So, who wants to do this, how about Tuesday?", there's nobody.
So, uhm, good luck I guess, heh. Ie you want to just rewrite our rules and use those, that'd be nice, save me some work.
- Chris
Getting rules changed is a pain. Nobody wants to do it at an event, and nobody wants to set aside the time to do it between events. We've been trying to redo our rules for nearly a year now (players knw some changes are in order), but when it comes to "So, who wants to do this, how about Tuesday?", there's nobody.
So, uhm, good luck I guess, heh. Ie you want to just rewrite our rules and use those, that'd be nice, save me some work.
- Chris
Well to prevent dead mans walks/talks the rule could say "a player that says "hit", "out", eliminated or anything to that effect is out (inactive), and must surrender his armband to the closest ref"
I think giving a team a 1-4-1 because somone on that team said "out" is rather harsh, a certain Ducklings game at joy comes to mind
even though no 1-4-1 was given/or needed in this game.
Yep Nick, maybe I’m being picky.
Edit: OK I found 11.8 so the barrel sock stuff is fine. But I would think it's better for everyone to keep their goggles on when on the field all the time. The marshals should have their own safe area where they can remove their goggles.
Rules 19.1 - 19.5 tell us about in game chronographing which is fine but 17.6 and 19.6 seem to suggest that only Radar chronies are acceptable which to me means that a judge can chrono me on field, but only with a Radar not a hand held.
As I've mentioned in the past I think it's possible to calibrate hand helds by taking a marker at the beginning of the day testing it over the Radar if consistent then firing it over each of the hand helds. This is a very easy way to wean out the hand helds that are reading inaccuratly. I don't see how the hand helds can be used on field to eliminate players unless they have been checked against one another and the Radar using a marker as the constant. That goes back to marshalling guidelines and procedures.
Anyways perhaps I'm being devils advocate but I’ve seen teams rip rules apart when points are on the line. Things need to be simple consistent and water tight. I think there are problems with the rules and we need a system to deal with it.
Alan...............
Edit: OK I found 11.8 so the barrel sock stuff is fine. But I would think it's better for everyone to keep their goggles on when on the field all the time. The marshals should have their own safe area where they can remove their goggles.
Rules 19.1 - 19.5 tell us about in game chronographing which is fine but 17.6 and 19.6 seem to suggest that only Radar chronies are acceptable which to me means that a judge can chrono me on field, but only with a Radar not a hand held.
As I've mentioned in the past I think it's possible to calibrate hand helds by taking a marker at the beginning of the day testing it over the Radar if consistent then firing it over each of the hand helds. This is a very easy way to wean out the hand helds that are reading inaccuratly. I don't see how the hand helds can be used on field to eliminate players unless they have been checked against one another and the Radar using a marker as the constant. That goes back to marshalling guidelines and procedures.
Anyways perhaps I'm being devils advocate but I’ve seen teams rip rules apart when points are on the line. Things need to be simple consistent and water tight. I think there are problems with the rules and we need a system to deal with it.
Alan...............
Just some background about the barrel sock rules:
I pushed for penalties for violations because:
1. There were far too many incidents of players not using their barrel socks in goggles-off areas. In fact I was sitting at the admin table at one tourney this year when a player came and complained about a bloke getting shot in the face in the players' area.
2. There were far too many instances of judges with their goggles off on the playing field in the presence of unbagged markers.
For all cases of barrel sock violations I wanted the teams, and especially the individual players, to pay a price for ignoring basic safety (and don't get me started on a long speech about how we might lose our sport if more eyes get knocked out). It's all about behavior modifications and creating new habits.
In the case of keeping your barrel socks on your marker until the judges say "barrel socks off", I wanted a new habit to be created so that judges and field maintenance crews could have the freedom to be mask-free until just before and just after games.
We were forced to do that at Huntington Beach because we had bunker cleaning crews who didn't have masks. We had the chrono crew tell about and enforce barrel socks on upon entry to the field and it worked grandly.
The fact is: judges are going to take their masks up or off between games even if we provide ref tents. We shouldn't have to penalize the judges, we just have to get the players to form a new habit.
As for throwing down your barrel bags while you play, NO. Players are supposed to sock their markers just after they are eliminated. It says so in the rules.
Steve
I pushed for penalties for violations because:
1. There were far too many incidents of players not using their barrel socks in goggles-off areas. In fact I was sitting at the admin table at one tourney this year when a player came and complained about a bloke getting shot in the face in the players' area.
2. There were far too many instances of judges with their goggles off on the playing field in the presence of unbagged markers.
For all cases of barrel sock violations I wanted the teams, and especially the individual players, to pay a price for ignoring basic safety (and don't get me started on a long speech about how we might lose our sport if more eyes get knocked out). It's all about behavior modifications and creating new habits.
In the case of keeping your barrel socks on your marker until the judges say "barrel socks off", I wanted a new habit to be created so that judges and field maintenance crews could have the freedom to be mask-free until just before and just after games.
We were forced to do that at Huntington Beach because we had bunker cleaning crews who didn't have masks. We had the chrono crew tell about and enforce barrel socks on upon entry to the field and it worked grandly.
The fact is: judges are going to take their masks up or off between games even if we provide ref tents. We shouldn't have to penalize the judges, we just have to get the players to form a new habit.
As for throwing down your barrel bags while you play, NO. Players are supposed to sock their markers just after they are eliminated. It says so in the rules.
Steve
Joern,
I've thought of an alternative to the re-hang rule we continue to disagree on.
>I think there is no problem with the eliminated player standing up with flag in hand. That way everyone sees where the flag is, no forward progress of the flag is lost and no time is wasted fumbling around with getting a re-hang. And I have never seen a problem with players getting hit or being used as an obstacle to hide behind, and I've reffed over 1000 games with that rule.
>You think a player holding a flag might get hit or be used as an obstacle.
How about this:
Let the closest ref take the flag and hold it until a player takes it? Millennium has plenty of refs so that shouldn't be a problem. The ref holding the flag can also move +/- 2 meters to stay out of streams of paint and keep from being used as an obtacle.
That way no forward movement is lost, the flag won't get lost, no player will get in the way, no game time is wasted and the flow of the game is kept.
What do y'all think? What do you think, Joern?
Steve
I've thought of an alternative to the re-hang rule we continue to disagree on.
>I think there is no problem with the eliminated player standing up with flag in hand. That way everyone sees where the flag is, no forward progress of the flag is lost and no time is wasted fumbling around with getting a re-hang. And I have never seen a problem with players getting hit or being used as an obstacle to hide behind, and I've reffed over 1000 games with that rule.
>You think a player holding a flag might get hit or be used as an obstacle.
How about this:
Let the closest ref take the flag and hold it until a player takes it? Millennium has plenty of refs so that shouldn't be a problem. The ref holding the flag can also move +/- 2 meters to stay out of streams of paint and keep from being used as an obtacle.
That way no forward movement is lost, the flag won't get lost, no player will get in the way, no game time is wasted and the flow of the game is kept.
What do y'all think? What do you think, Joern?
Steve
Steve
Players need to sock their guns upon elimination (and I don't mean instantly but before they're going into the dead box) because:
1. If all guns are socked there is a little more safety margin to prevent accidental discharges and illegal shootings.
2. Within seconds after game over is declared all markers should be safe. We don't want players walking around trying to find barrel bags on the ground with uncovered muzzles. I explained why in my last post.
The rules about this have been around for years and have good grounds. We need to start enforcing them.
Note: it would be good promotion for some sponsors, say the sponsors of each field, to have barrel socks on hand on each field to give away to those who have lost them. Good promotion and an endorsement of safety.
Flags: I still think the spectators and sometimes even the players need to be able to see at a glance what the status of the game is. I believe in buttons at each flag station connected to the game timer, but I also think we need flags for the sake of the show. Besides, I think it is good to have exclusive points for first grab.
But you and I will probably continue to disagree on this point although we agree on most others concerning what makes an interesting and fun game and one that rewards aggression, planning, teamwork and skill.
But, this is off-topic.
Steve
Nick,
Players need to sock their guns upon elimination (and I don't mean instantly but before they're going into the dead box) because:
1. If all guns are socked there is a little more safety margin to prevent accidental discharges and illegal shootings.
2. Within seconds after game over is declared all markers should be safe. We don't want players walking around trying to find barrel bags on the ground with uncovered muzzles. I explained why in my last post.
The rules about this have been around for years and have good grounds. We need to start enforcing them.
Note: it would be good promotion for some sponsors, say the sponsors of each field, to have barrel socks on hand on each field to give away to those who have lost them. Good promotion and an endorsement of safety.
Flags: I still think the spectators and sometimes even the players need to be able to see at a glance what the status of the game is. I believe in buttons at each flag station connected to the game timer, but I also think we need flags for the sake of the show. Besides, I think it is good to have exclusive points for first grab.
But you and I will probably continue to disagree on this point although we agree on most others concerning what makes an interesting and fun game and one that rewards aggression, planning, teamwork and skill.
But, this is off-topic.
Steve
Yes.
I asked for it when I started, but NO ****ING ONE WAS INTERESTED even in listening to my thoughts...
I asked for input - NO ONE EVER MAILED (except some Ducks
.You wanna join?
joern