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Millenniumrule 19.6 is BAD

Gislo

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Mar 7, 2002
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Where did you guys take Math ????

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
2,5 bunkers x 14 players is 35 bunkers

Nick [/B]
The rule:
"A field is to hold at least 2,5 obstacles (bunkers) per player on one team"

Surely it can not be "at least" 35 bunkers a field!? Thats freakin alot! A "regular" 7-man field comes with 24 bunkers(?). Then 17-18 sounds more reasonable, but still... :confused:
 

Joern Windler

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Great!

Thats the input I waited for a long long time.
I asked for it a couple of times and no one except some few (thanks to the Ducklings) mailed their opinions.

Im the same opinion, that the rules in NPPL and MS should be equal. But unfortunately the NPPL does not really care about improving their rulebook. Well, I heard some rumors, that this may change in the future ...

But lets go back to the mentioned problems you have.

First: If you have any problems regarding the language - feel free to reword any section and mail it to me. I asked A LOT of native speakers to help me with this problem, but no one EVER helped...

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9.1. three layers

Remember the Maxs Masters. It was ****ing freezing there. If the ultimate sees that the temperature is able to make everybody ill the next days he will tell the teams, that three layers are fine. Were playing (mostly) for fun and no one needs a cold. The 10 degrees is to have mark where it is cold enough.



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14.1-3...14.1 An “active” player is every player on the field which

Agreed. I had an idea for a complete new rulebook concept, but that didnt really work as long as Im not a professional rule-keeper and get paid for the time I spend thereon.



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17.6 All players whose markers have not passed the chronograph and cannot remedy on time will be counted as eliminated and therefore inactive.

Because it makes no difference if you get caught with a HOT marker before or during the game. The punishment should be the same. Its easier and imho logic.



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19.6...The following chrono-procedure will be done with the “red”

We had some severe problems with the handheld chronos. They differ at some time from the red-field ones. And I had to think about the following:

When the command "guns down" right after the teams are ready comes all players have to put their guns down and were NOT allowed to shoot. The "better" players (Pros) shot several times to decrease the "increased" velocity. I thought about a possibility to punish them therefore, but you cant see who exactly shot and who not of these 7 players standing there, so you have problems with a fair punishment. So if you cant do it fair this way round you have to think about another way, which is fair to all of the players (the good and the evil). Actually the velocity increases in our markers while they are not being shot for a time. This doesnt happen during our game. You always shoot, so the increasing of the velocity isnt a problem during a game. It is only for the first 3 shots at the beginning. But in the beginning the opponent is nearly 70 meters away, so even if the v0 velocity is 320 the ball hits the player with less than 200 fps.
Its still safe.



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27.1...leaves a mark no matter of what size it is.

The mark must be seen. Otherwise it isnt a mark. Isnt it?
I dont want any size like a kroner or whatever in there. Otherwise we have all these ****ing discussions if the size is big enough or not, which we havent right now. Of course the mark must be seen. But you are in the hands of the judge anyway. If he sees the impact and the mark everything should be fine.
If he doesnt see the impact we have the size issue back on the agenda as it is in the rules.



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27.4...Players using electric or electronic markers must ask for permission from a judge before operating buttons during the

That was an old try (before my time) to prevnt people from operating buttons while there were these turbo-boards etc which could be programmed by the button and the triggerpull.
We still have these cheaters, but you cant actually see (if the player is not too dumb) if he operates a button or not. So I would vote for deleting this rule.



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28.5 If a player is eliminated while in possession of a flag, the flag judge will radio his counterpart at the opposition flag station to rehang the spare flag.

Great rule. :)
Otherwise we had a "living flag" which means that an eliminated player with a marker stands on the filed with the flag in his hands. He could be used as cover and also (while in possession of his marker) could do some big ****.
I want ONLY live players on the field. (and some judges)



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29.1 Playing on entails continuing to act as an active player in the game after getting inactive. Playing on includes...saying “hit”, “out” or “eliminated”, which constitues a playing on.


Thats one try to prevent dead man walks AND dead mans talks. And its fine to me. People have to shup up (and normally do) if they are dead.



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6.7 fieldlayout

I got this rule written by someone else and didnt look at it carefully. Sorry..

What about doing it like this: Minimum size 65*35 meter with 24 obstacles.



Just my thoughts when I spend some hours for you guys and our sport...

Any comments?
I hope so. :)


joern.

PS: I'll be off this weekend. so expect my comments on monday.
 

Wadidiz

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Jul 9, 2002
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Very good, Joern,

We were hoping to get you into this discussion. Now I'll have to study your answers to come back to you.

For now, I have wanted to help with the language but I felt it would be best if we could do that face-to-face so we wouldn't waste so much time misunderstanding each other. I'll just have to take the time to send you some suggestions.

I also mean what I've told you several times and what others have said about you: You are open to discussion and you are willing to change if you become convinced.

Now some of us just have to convince you about a couple of points.;)

Steve
 

Alan Smith

***-for-life
So Nick, in light of what happened to Russian Legion in Toulouse I think it's wise for all teams to fire their markers on the ten second warning! I'm allowed to do that, right???

Also is there a rule that says once the marshalls have asked for my marker to be put on the ground I can't fire it???? Also would that mean during a game a marshal can stop me fireing the marker?
EDIT: I realise the answer to this is 19.6 but was there a version of this in the rules before Toulouse 2003? I can't see it in 1.1F April 2003.

Are the changes we are talking about in the rules already????
Edit: Yep found them in 1.2 V. worrying!

Oh and as you know lets go with the buzzer!!!!!!!!

Alan...........
 

Joern Windler

Laws in motioN
Apr 2, 2002
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Joern

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
17.6
PROVIDED teams have the turnovertime stated in the rules and the game is not started prior to the scheduled time - I agree.

19.6
You don't want clearing shots at all in the rulebook !

You say opponents are 70 metres from eachother from the outset ? - yeah.... except if someone runs straight to a 50 and puts his first ball into someones lense at 10 metres.....

Honestly - this is safety - let's do away with clearing shots altogether !

27.1
Agree with Joern - why define a size... if a judge sees you hit, you should be out - that is what the whole game is about !.... As said I would even vote for bounces getting you out of the game as well !

28.5
Just put in there what is supposed to happen to the flag - and then let the ultimates lesson judges on how to do it in detail !

Okay. THis is my last post before monday.
I would prefer if you talk through all the issues which come to your mind. So I have a LOT of input, I believe. :)

17.6
Thats in the book. So thats your right.
Which might be problematic to prove due to the reason we dont write the time down at which the games ended ... :)


19.6
no clearing shots?
Im fine with it. In my opinion people can play at 280 so there is no need to push the limits. But I was asked by so many people about the limits (which were with 3 shots of an AVERAGE of 300 aimho a big safety issue *before* I started) and the problems, so that I thought that might be the way out of the dilemma. People are used to 300fps adnd they dont accept and UNDERSTAND that there is a world below 300...


28.5
It was meant to explain the players what should happen.. never thought about punishing a marshall in this special case..


So .. 19.6 is the issue worth talking about.
Your comments, please!


If we finish before - lets say wednesday - we could do a new version, which is even better than having one, which ist not state of the art.

These who are interested in helping please e-mail me their addresses so I can send you the changed rulebook, which you could check then.

Thanks for your interest!

Joern!
 

Wadidiz

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Let's start again but with the most important points:

1. I think it is a mistake to have changed the entire order and sequence of the rules compared to our sister league NPPL. It just makes it harder for our players and refs and their players and refs to compete and ref in each others' events.

>>REDO THE ORDER. I started this once but then the rules changed again. Keep it as international as possible!



2. I think it is a mistake to change any rules during the season, except in extreme cases. It is already hard enough for players and judges to have a command of the long-standing rules, much less have to study them between every event.

>>WAIT TILL MID-SEASON! (Of course there is a strong possibility that everything will change now after all your work.)



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9.1...Three layers will be allowed if the temperature is less than 10°C
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>>Get rid of this ridiculous rule, please. Playing with more than two layers of clothing is not paintball! People in Sweden play PB a lot when it is below 10 C. As soon as the game starts nobody thinks a thing about it. We don't need to complicate things, we need to simplify.



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17.6 All players whose markers have not passed the chronograph and cannot remedy on time will be counted as eliminated and therefore inactive.
____________________________________
>>Let people play without a marker in such cases! Unfair otherwise!



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28.5 If a player is eliminated while in possession of a flag, the flag judge will radio his counterpart at the opposition flag station to rehang the spare flag.
_____________________________________
This one I strongly disagree with. NPPL has had a player who is eliminated with the flag stand up ever since the beginning 10 years ago. I've never seen a problem with that. Sure, once in a blue moon a player gets an extra hit, but not so often.

The games are much too fast to have the disruption or time run out because judges are trying to sort out getting a flag re-hung at the base of origin. Things are complicated enough as it is! And I disagree with the X Ball rule of dropping the flag if hit. Then it gets lost.

>>ANSWER THE LOGIC OF THIS! See Baca's answer too. This rule is a major step backwards.




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29.1 Playing on entails continuing to act as an active player in the game after getting inactive. Playing on includes...saying “hit”, “out” or “eliminated”, which constitues a playing on.
______________________________________
I totally disagree with this one. I have been saying "hit" for 11 years now (the few times I get hit). I was mugged during a game in Amsterdam and I screamed, "Ow! O.K.! I'm hit," as a natural reaction. I should have had a 1-4-1 pulled if they had followed this rule. It is clear when a player is shouting hit to stop the pelting and when he/she is talking to teammates.

>>Reverse the rule and say that it's playing on if the player says something after the first two or three seconds after being hit.



Steve
 

Alan Smith

***-for-life
OK, I just checked out the new rulebook version 1.2 and I have got some big problems with it, as various parts are contradictory and confusing now leaving the book open to abuse.

I was going to do a long post here but think it's inappropriate. So I was wondering what the procedure is for rule changes and who can be contacted with regards to the rules????

Thanks,

Alan……….
 

Alan Smith

***-for-life
So Nick when did 19.6 first come into being V 1.2 suggests only after Toulouse, was there no version of it before that, as I can't find it in V 1.1F April 2003.

Also is it Joern I should write to about rule changes? And is there no procedure for proposed rule changes to be reviewed before they are implemented? I can't believe that.

Alan..........
 

Wadidiz

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DON'T CHANGE THE RULES MIDSEASON! That simple.

Can I get a witness on that? Am I the only one who thinks this?

And don't take the flag back to the base of origin or have it rehung when the flag carrier is hit before the flag is hung. It WILL cause problems and confusion sooner or later, probably in the middle of a close game when time is short.

The gnomes who thought out the NPPL rules years ago realized that it is stupid to waste time and disrupt the game by doing a rehang during game time. One of the main ideas with the NPPL rules when they were developed was to keep the game flowing.

Has anyone ever seen a serious problem with standing the flag-carrier up with flag in hand after he/she has been eliminated?