London attacks - what's going on???

[Ben Frain]

Originally posted by duffistuta
I think you'll find if you take a look at the law itself, it was brought in to extend the same protection to Christians, Muslims and other groups that was previously only afforded to Jews and Sikhs.

I'm not talking about the law and it's 'catch all' nature though. I'm talking about the dossier and the reason it was created in the first place.

On your other point, yes, you misinterpreted my point. I will try and be clearer in future and perhaps you could be less inclined to believe because I don't subscribe to your views I am sat at my keyboard in a Ku Klux Klan outfit.

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by HERMITT


Why do they act in this way and what is it that we have done to provoke this response?

I think the answer to that is huge, complex and will vary from fundamentalist to fundamentalist - you can toss in a dozen personal, political and historical reasons, and probably add a degree of individual personality disorders to most of them.


There is no way you will satisfy the hardcore leaders, ever. What needs to be done, as one American general memorably said, is to drain the swamp: looking at a range of issues, from the way the west treats Arab states and the Govts it props up there, to dealing with the Palestine problem, to economic factors, to Iraq, todraining the funding of these groups, and many other things, will lead to fewer and fewer willing converts to jihad and will serve to isolate and disempower the headcases like Bin Laden.

In my opinion.

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Ben Frain
I'm not talking about the law and it's 'catch all' nature though. I'm talking about the dossier and the reason it was created in the first place.

On your other point, yes, you misinterpreted my point. I will try and be clearer in future and perhaps you could be less inclined to believe because I don't subscribe to your views I am sat at my keyboard in a Ku Klux Klan outfit.

I don't believe that, I respect you as an intelligent poster, but I think that you did yourself no favours with the examples I highlighted.

I will try and take more deep breaths before posting next time.

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Robbo



Bring in the ID cards tomorrow for all I care, check me fifty times a week, search my house, do whatever but if you can tell me afterwards that as a result of what you are doing it helps ensure the safety of my family, don’t expect too many arguments from this neck of woods.

This from the person who has a problem with all authority of any nature?



Couldn't disagree with you more.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by duffistuta
This from the person who has a problem with all authority of any nature?



Couldn't disagree with you more.

And whilst you disagree, people are getting killed and maimed...but it's ok, everything's quite ok coz we can still speak on a street corner


I fully realise that my reduction of the problem isn't refined but it at least shows that priorities sometimes need to be looked at...unfortunately, those priorities are bought sharply into focus at times like these and some of those people who are now re-evaluating them are either laying in a hospital bed or are related to those that are and to the ones who have died.

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Robbo
And whilst you disagree, people are getting killed and maimed...but it's ok, everything's quite ok coz we can still speak on a street corner


I fully realise that my reduction of the problem isn't refined but it at least shows that priorities sometimes need to be looked at...unfortunately, those priorities are bought sharply into focus at times like these and some of those people who are now re-evaluating them are either laying in a hospital bed or are related to those that are and to the ones who have died.

So what's the answer - a Stalinist state? How far do you go? What measures would have stopped 4 British citizens, who would have had ID cards were they to be introduced, doing what they did?

Come on - how far do you go? How many freedoms are you willing to give up? Should we have given up when Hitler tried to invade -we would have lost our freedoms but I imagine lots of lives would have been saved. What would have stopped that event taking place last Friday?

On any other morning than Friday my wife would have been in Liverpool St when the bomb went - as it was she had a meeting so got a train in 10 minutes late and was outside when it happened. I spent an hour and a half unable to contact her, convinced she was dead cos her mobile wouldn't connect.

I have never been so scared in my life - but I tell you what, giving up basic freedoms out of fear is not a state I want to live in, whatever happens. **** that.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by duffistuta
So what's the answer - a Stalinist state? How far do you go? What measures would have stopped 4 British citizens, who would have had ID cards were they to be introduced, doing what they did?

Come on - how far do you go? How many freedoms are you willing to give up? What would have stopped that event taking place?

Why do you go from a more vigilant and accountable society straight to a Stalinist state, what is the rationale for that?.....because it is a possibility ?
It's possible a jumbo jet could land on my head as I go outside my front door but.....

Anything’s possible in that sense but we have to make valued judgments somewhere along the line otherwise we would never leave our house and we can't automatically assume Blair will take on the mantle of Stalin just because we need to ‘tighten’ a few things up.
I ask again, why distrust the government (and as you said, I hate authority but I trust them in this area) and in so doing let it dictate the direction of our inaction and then consequently give free reign to the terrorists?

Of course it is no certainty that any such tightening would have prevented these 4 from doing what they did, but I tell ya one thing, it wouldn't have hurt and there is more chance of catching them under any new tightening than if we didn't, now that is 100% sure !

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Robbo
Why do you go from a more vigilant and accountable society straight to a Stalinist state, what is the rationale for that?.....because it is a possibility ?

Of course it is no certainty that any such tightening would have prevented these 4 from doing what they did, but I tell ya one thing, it wouldn't have hurt and there is more chance of catching them under any new tightening than if we didn't, now that is 100% sure !

1. What is the rationale for that? Because ID cards are the start of a potentially slippery slope and I see freedoms being eroded all over the place.

2. Sorry, be specfic - explain to me what tightening would have helped, cos I fail to see any that wouldn't impinge on my personal freedoms to a degree that I personally would not accept.

PS I edited my post while you were writing the above I think...

 

[Ben Frain]

Originally posted by duffistuta
1. What is the rationale for that? Because ID cards are the start of a potentially slippery slope and I see freedoms being eroded all over the place.

2. Sorry, be specfic - explain to me what tightening would have helped, cos I fail to see any that wouldn't impinge on my personal freedoms to a degree that I personally would not accept.

PS I edited my post while you were writing the above I think...

Sorry to infringe but would you concede that getting the plan I mentioned (MI5 offing naughty extremists) in motion would deal with no2 without affecting your personal freedoms?

 

[HERMITT]

Ah Robbo, never one to tread lightly into a debate!

The fact is as a middle aged whit emale you won't be stopped that much. Your house won't be raided and you wont have your phone tapped. However, the last time we had draconian stop and search laws was well within the time frame of your life. I dont believe it helped the relations between white and black communities in any way. It didnt lead to any riots or changes in the law at all?!!

The fact is we have defended our rights and freedoms for years. The London bombings, while horrific do not warrant anyone taking these away. While we debate this people in this country are not being maimed, killed or tortured (thanks to the laws we hold so dear. The evil muslim, suicide bombing, child eating *******s that appear in our media dont exist. If you belive this then you are just succumbing to the vast amount of propaganda that is one of the major reasons for the situation we find ourselves in.

The authorities already have more than enough ways to investigate suspects and attempt to stop this happening. The fact is that by its very nature terrorism cannot and will not go away A government minister even accepted that the very basis of a free society is the fact that it will be the victim of those who aim to bring it down.

When we see a plane crash, all we see is the carnage and death that it cuases. We forget that flying is the safest form of mass transit in the world. We forget that millions of flights take place each year. Before we get worked up in what we must do to try and stop this happening maybe we should consider the wider impact of giving up our societies core values over a statistically rare event. More people still die from smoking than terrorsm, what would Robbo's solution to that be?