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Let's talk Raehl

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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Well nice to see Chris can actually get one forlorn soul to at least resemble an independent opinion but I'm afraid your feeble attempt in backing Chris up has fallen on stony ground as Paul isn't the only person on this board to take issue with Chris or his credentials.
The vast majority of people who post here are tired of his arrogance and his propensity to stick his nose in at almost every opportunity.
Now if you are such a staunch advocate of Chris, go away, both of you, set up your own little bulletin board and all you preppies can indulge yourself all day long.


Baca- I am resisting...I truly am mate but it's a fight I fear may end up losing.......
 

Wretched7

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Let me throw some of my credentials around here so that Mr. Hawker might think twice about telling me I don't know what I'm talking about.

I own Wretched 7, a company developed by me to market the products that I have invented for Paintball. Kryptonite (glow-in-the-dark paint) now Dark Legion, the UV Hopper and some other sweet items for night play. I set this company up, built a website, have organized events, negotiated my own contracts, wrote my own patents, designed my own products and artwork, develped an advertising plan, initiated it, produced concerts at both the IAO and Super 7 HB, and will do more in the future, worked very closely for and with people like Bill Cookston, WDP, National and a slew of other professionals in the industry. I have in fact advanced my company, watch for an interview with me in P8NT, check the latest Jawwbraker for footage of the concert I produced, keep your eye open for me on the cover of PB2X, and Crossfire this year, and watch out for my factory team coming up strong. I've played at the amateur level, and now for ISU, taking advantage of a free degree from four years of service to my country in the USAF.

I DO in fact know what I"m talking about. You will find very little support for Chris in the NCPA, you find more tolerance because of his willingness to do the job. I don't think that players in the S7 or PSP are lazy, I thinkthere is an obligation by the promoters to provide the best experience possible to them because they are customers. Thus the theory behind the concerts at these events. In turn this also helps the sport overall.

- Paul Ciesiun
 

Rob Hawker

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Sep 9, 2002
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no question your qualified

Paul, I never questioned you as a business person, BUT I won't sit by as someone who puts a ton of work into something get's trashed for doing it. You get paid for your work, congrats. Chris gets nothing more then a slap in the face for his efforts. If there are all these people who dislike his motives/actions/whatever then let them step up and do the job. I know for a fact you get e-mails all the time from people telling you how to run your business, and how many field owners dislike your brand for it's name "Dark Legion" (I know because I work for a field who refuses to carry it because our players won't use it, and the owners have let you know.) I also know that you basically tell them to stick it, that you have your name and your keeping it. Which is not a problem...but then you come on here and blast a guy who has done nothing but try? Get real!

Second, you make way too many generalizations in saying "You will find very little support for Chris in the NCPA", Maybe the MICT has problems, but I keep in constant communication with the other regions and you seem to be the only ones who will make a 30+ long arguement on the NCPA forums over it....check the rest of the forums, or even e-mail presidents of other teams...I promise you you'lll be surprised about where the true majority lies.

Robbo- I would hope you'd be more grown up then that. You know as well as everyone that these forums are as open as any other forum. I just happen to share Chris's opinion. I played NPPL for 4 years in the AM A division and to be honest I grew so sick of it I had to get a change.

I have nothing against the PSP/NPPL, never have. It's the other people. The cheating (and don't even try to defend that issue), petty disagreements (can we say PSP/NPPL break up?), and ability of everyone to speak ther mind, but no one to do anything about it (Netting at AC, Air Fills at Cup, Prizes, ID cards, ect....) You want something to change? Figure out how...then bring it up.
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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no question your qualified

Originally posted by Rob Hawker
Robbo- I would hope you'd be more grown up then that. You know as well as everyone that these forums are as open as any other forum. I just happen to share Chris's opinion. I played NPPL for 4 years in the AM A division and to be honest I grew so sick of it I had to get a change.

I have nothing against the PSP/NPPL, never have. It's the other people. The cheating (and don't even try to defend that issue), petty disagreements (can we say PSP/NPPL break up?), and ability of everyone to speak ther mind, but no one to do anything about it (Netting at AC, Air Fills at Cup, Prizes, ID cards, ect....) You want something to change? Figure out how...then bring it up.
Firstly, these forums are as open as the moderators allow, just like any other forum, as for the cheating issues in the PSP / NPPL, please don't try to tell me what I can or cannot defend, I will do what I deem necessary and comment on what I feel qualified to with no direction from yourself.
As far as I know, the PSP / NPPL have no exclusivity contract running with regard to cheating, it is everywhere, in every sphere of our game, it is merely a matter of degree.
And if you had read any of my articles over the years then you would know I have been one of the most vocal critics of the PSP.

I don't care whether you agree with agree Chris or not, the issue I was addressing is his attitude on this site and the reaction he elicits from not just myself but also many of the heavy hitters here. And by heavy hitters, I mean, extremely intelligent, experienced commentators all of whom have infinitely more patience and tolerance than I.
And still, he manages to piss them off.
I let him back on the board for no other reason than to give him another chance, if I feel he is pissing too many people off again, he will be banned again, no argument !
Chris is an intelligent guy, he sometimes can offer positive viewpoints which are welcome but my God, his arrogance and thick skin is truly mind boggling, this is the problem !!!
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
no question your qualified

Originally posted by Rob Hawker
I have nothing against the PSP/NPPL, never have. It's the other people. The cheating (and don't even try to defend that issue), petty disagreements (can we say PSP/NPPL break up?), and ability of everyone to speak ther mind, but no one to do anything about it (Netting at AC, Air Fills at Cup, Prizes, ID cards, ect....) You want something to change? Figure out how...then bring it up.
Issues--
Cheating--who would defend that, but tell me who bears ultimate responsibility for it? Who is responsible for failures to even provide the min. refs their own rules specify to say nothing of said refs abilities to do the job. Blame the players all you like but that will never change without institutional control. Your quitting the national circuit is simply your way of saying you weren't getting what you paid for. Which leads directly to--
Petty disagreements--lol. There may be petty personality clashes behind elements of it but at its core it's about what PB can and ought to be. Nothing petty about that.
As to the rest your esteemed president has offered over and over that customers have no rights other than "to buy" or "not to buy." Unlike you, some have continued over the years to put up with less than they believed they deserved and have done what they could to remedy that situation. With competition in providing a national series we are beginning to see what is and isn't possible and just what the "petty disagreements" actually amount to.
 
R

raehl

Guest
Here's an example of the difference between "us" and "them".

People have been complaining about the officiating at NPPL/PSP/S7/Millenium events for ... a long time, right? Has anything changed in those areas yet? Things appear to be better stateside this year, after many many years of the same problems.

Last year at our Nationals, the feedback was "We'd like better reffing and we'd be willing to pay a little more to get it."

So this year I made sure to get some good teams, and I got those teams by paying for them, because I had a player's organization who could 1) communicate to me what they wanted 2) understood what it would cost.

I don't think you could do something like that in PSP or S7.

I think that's the fundamental thing you guys are wanting out of your league, and it is one thing we DO have that the other national leagues don't.

This is the end of our third season. We've gone from 11 teams at the National Championships 2 years ago to 52 this year, with three of the major distributors supporting the event with cash. And there's more cool stuff in the works for next year. We are certainly not doing everything right, but we must be doing something right, and maybe if you took a look you might find something you could steal to make your league better.

As for buy/not buy - exactly. NCPA players earn the right to expect more out of their league because they're willing to be more than just customers - the league belongs to them, and they're willing to work to make it better.

Millenium belongs to the promoters, and the players seem unwilling to do anything more involved than complain on web forums, and the players are thus treated accordingly. I know the players want more and are pissed that they're not getting it...

But they're getting treated exactly the way anyone would expect given their willingness (or lack thereof) to take any real action.


- Chris
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Originally posted by raehl
Here's an example of the difference between "us" and "them".

People have been complaining about the officiating at NPPL/PSP/S7/Millenium events for ... a long time, right? Has anything changed in those areas yet? Things appear to be better stateside this year, after many many years of the same problems.

Last year at our Nationals, the feedback was "We'd like better reffing and we'd be willing to pay a little more to get it."

So this year I made sure to get some good teams, and I got those teams by paying for them, because I had a player's organization who could 1) communicate to me what they wanted 2) understood what it would cost.
There's a fairly substantial difference between teams paying $100-150 a team to play and teams paying $1,750-2,350 a team to play. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to imagine that somewhere in that $1,750 bucks there is money for refs while I'm playing P-Ball in a cow pasture. :rolleyes:
 
R

raehl

Guest
Not really.

Take out all the stuff PSP/S7/etc have to pay for that we don't.

- Taxes
- Lane, Rosie and Bill, or Camille, Chuck, and 10 other people
- Land rental
- Field setup/takedown/materials
- People to pick up and cart away other people's garbage
- Big event insurance (we piggyback location insurance)
- Business licensing, phone, promotion, etc.
- Flying everyone around to find, secure and negotiate locations
- TV commercials
- Etc.

The labor is the real killer there though. The second you have to pay someone to do something your costs skyrocket.


- Chris
 

Mark

UK Cougars
Jul 9, 2001
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Not really.

Originally posted by raehl
Take out all the stuff PSP/S7/etc have to pay for that we don't.

- Taxes
- Lane, Rosie and Bill, or Camille, Chuck, and 10 other people
- Land rental
- Field setup/takedown/materials
- People to pick up and cart away other people's garbage
- Big event insurance (we piggyback location insurance)
- Business licensing, phone, promotion, etc.
- Flying everyone around to find, secure and negotiate locations
- TV commercials
- Etc.

The labor is the real killer there though. The second you have to pay someone to do something your costs skyrocket.


- Chris
1.???? what you don't declare the income generated (wether or not you hand it straight out???)
2. Yeah everyone would do it for love??
3. Has to be paid whatever event or size!
4. Ok so you leave it all behind for someone else to clear?
5. See above
6. Would love to see the small print on that waiver!
7. Never ring anyone? and do it all by word of mouth?
8. Given geographical limitations that would be the cheap way to do it
9. See 7.
10. Get real !

To follow on, what are you doing now? You are now (if you were correct in your breakdown) defending the very events that you are so vocal in your putdowns about. Oh well roll on election time....maybe your voting members will see the error of your ways...2 candidates for your "job" already ;)
 
R

raehl

Guest
1) No, I don't pay taxes on the income (what little there is) generated. It's a non-profit organization, no taxes.
2) Indeed not, but we don't have paid employees, so that's an extra expense for them over us.
3) They pay 4-10 times more than we do for major event locations, and maybe 50 more times if you compare their major events to our minor ones, because they use non-paintball locations and we don't.
4) We use paintball locations where everything is already set up, or our players do it if it's a university location.
5) No, we have players who know how to put trash in a trash can.
6) Look at the waiver you fill out next time you're at a paintball field - it's the same waiver. Or for University locations, we just use the existing insurance for college athletic events on campus.
7) YES! Our promotions budget is nearly 0 - I have direct contact information for the vast majority of the teams; they know to come to our website for information, and we get a lot of milage out of free publicity via event coverage etc.
8) Indeed it is - but instead of flying people around, we just use the players who are there. Again, we save mucho bucks because players are willing to do some of the work.
9) For us, we get larger events by not having commercials and charging lower entry than we would upping everyone's entry by $100 or 200 and having TV commercials. That'll change as we get bigger, but PSP/S7 already are bigger, so they DO spend money on TV commercials.


You could have better reffing if you had a player's organization that would agree to make the players use trash cans and pick up after themselves, thus allowing the promoters to spend the money they were spending on people to do it for you on referees instead. But you guys don't look at that tradeoff - if the reffing is bad, you bitch about that, if the trash is bad, you bitch about that, if the entry goes up, you bitch about that. My guys don't complain - they pick up their garbage, and we spend the saved money on referees and keep entry fees down.


You guys want the PROMOTERS to bear the responsibility, but still let the PLAYERS get to make the decisions, and THAT is what I'm saying is ridiculous. If you want to be able to make the decisions, you need to get off your asses and create an organization similar to the NCPA where the PLAYERS (through the league they own) bear the responsibility, and THEN the players will get to make the decisions.

And if you do that, what you'll quickly realize is that all that stuff you want is a lot harder to do when YOU have to figure out how to pay for it or it's YOUR wallet that ends up with the $10,000 hole or the event just doesn't happen at all.


No one is more amazed at what the promoters manage to pull off than I am. I am most certainly not faulting the job they do. I'm faulting the player's expectation that they deserve something more. They have done nothing to earn it.


- Chris