Joy Stockholm official comment on OC NPPL

[Beaker]

But surely for those teams the decision to come again relies heavily on the fun factor? Which depends on many things, of which reffing will be a part, but is unlikely to be a major one, as they don't play in a way that makes it hard on the refs and they all think that French refs suck anyway, yet continue to bumrush Toulouse.
I think things like the trade village, the atmosphere, nekkid hoes and such are more of a deciding factor.

Completely agree. My point was more as long as it's not terrible and particularly worse than that which they get at home - they'll moan but come again.

Plus bad reffing might prevent a "fun" teams turning into a "serious" team if they think "well what's the point of going to more big events than we are if we're just going to get screwed over by refs every time." a we wont win no matter what we do mentality is all too easy in paintball.

Why was the NPPL so massively successful at attracting teams at first? My bet that it was: making the players feel special (event feel, bands, media, fruit, grandstand etc), locations, organisation and reffing - in that order.

 

[Wadidiz]

And peeps wonder why Paintball can't crack the bigtime. If our biggest events and top promoters are conflicted about what the game is or isn't and just who they are catering to how can anyone seriously expect anybody outside of the game to take it seriously?

You've pointed this out many times before and it's a very germaine question. So how do you propose we fix these things you often bring up, such as having rules that aren't a jokebook, refs that are consistent and respected and having tournaments that are more about serious sports competition than who can drink the most, shoot the most cars or contract the worst STDs?

I'd really like to hear what kind of model you would set up.

 

[Baca Loco]

You've pointed this out many times before and it's a very germaine question. So how do you propose we fix these things you often bring up, such as having rules that aren't a jokebook, refs that are consistent and respected and having tournaments that are more about serious sports competition than who can drink the most, shoot the most cars or contract the worst STDs?

I'd really like to hear what kind of model you would set up.

I guess you missed issue 212, eh Steverino? The VIEW in 212 proposed an out-of-the-box concept for how the Pro Circuit(s) ought to operate.
In brief I suggested chucking ALL the non-Pro hangers on etc.
Make the Pro Circuit only the Pros and make the circuit a series of event appearances piggy-backed on chosen events at regional series that sign on to the plan. That way Pro appearances are actually special, they serve to support regional and grass roots development and the vendors can follow the circuit and have new and different customers at every event along with local non-competing players who are drawn by the Pro appearances. Likewise the Pro appearances validate the regional series and --then you top it all off by making World Cup a multi-divisional event--like now--but in order to go to WC the teams earn their way in via their regional series results over the course of the year so that world cup competitors are actually vying for a legitimate championship as the representatives of their regions.
Of course all that requires regional series that conform to format and rules but if the goal starting today was to use the power of the big leagues to begin promoting and developing such a plan in cooperation with leagues like the CFOA and the XSPL other regional series would quickly expand or get started and the end result would be a stronger foundation for tourney paintball, a cheaper and more meaningful Pro series, more opportunity for vendors and the sort of unity of purpose in format and rules that nobody can now seem to manage.
So obviously it doesn't have a hope in hell of being taken seriously.

 

[Wadidiz]

I guess you missed issue 212, eh Steverino? The VIEW in 212 proposed an out-of-the-box concept for how the Pro Circuit(s) ought to operate.
In brief I suggested chucking ALL the non-Pro hangers on etc.
Make the Pro Circuit only the Pros and make the circuit a series of event appearances piggy-backed on chosen events at regional series that sign on to the plan. That way Pro appearances are actually special, they serve to support regional and grass roots development and the vendors can follow the circuit and have new and different customers at every event along with local non-competing players who are drawn by the Pro appearances. Likewise the Pro appearances validate the regional series and --then you top it all off by making World Cup a multi-divisional event--like now--but in order to go to WC the teams earn their way in via their regional series results over the course of the year so that world cup competitors are actually vying for a legitimate championship as the representatives of their regions.
Of course all that requires regional series that conform to format and rules but if the goal starting today was to use the power of the big leagues to begin promoting and developing such a plan in cooperation with leagues like the CFOA and the XSPL other regional series would quickly expand or get started and the end result would be a stronger foundation for tourney paintball, a cheaper and more meaningful Pro series, more opportunity for vendors and the sort of unity of purpose in format and rules that nobody can now seem to manage.
So obviously it doesn't have a hope in hell of being taken seriously.

Looks reasonable at first blush. Guess I'll have to scare me up a copy of 212. Like you say, not so likely but something like this need doing.

 

[Chicago]

Uh-huh.

And who is going to pay for these Pro series events?

There is demand for a national circuit. It's even profitable demand (in the sense that looking at the non-Pro divisions, you seem to come up with enough money to not lose your shirt when you also run the Pro division.)

If people are willing to pay you money for it, why wouldn't you offer it?


We can fix reffing just by getting better at reffing. All that takes is someone to decide that the reffing has to be better, although some out-of-industry money would help. But both of those things happen WITH a national circuit, not getting rid of one.


And I think it works - PSP seems to have decided last year that the reffing needed to be better, and it got better. Hell, for most of the events it was pretty good, with some sketchiness at Cup just because enough bodies haven't been found yet. Nonetheless, PSP is some evidence tht if you put some effort into it, you can do good things o the reffing front.

The same could be said for NPPL in 2003-2004 as well.

 

[Buddha 3]

Why was the NPPL so massively successful at attracting teams at first? My bet that it was: making the players feel special (event feel, bands, media, fruit, grandstand etc), locations, organisation and reffing - in that order.

Good point. When the NPPL started out, they seemed to be doing everything right. HB was their first event if my failing memory serves me correctly, which obviously is a great location. Plus they had a top notch reffing crew, in that they flew in the Joy-boys.

I'm telling ya, they should have never let them play. Then they would still have good refs and they would never have had the controversy that started this thread.

 

[Wadidiz]

Good point. When the NPPL started out, they seemed to be doing everything right. HB was their first event if my failing memory serves me correctly, which obviously is a great location. Plus they had a top notch reffing crew, in that they flew in the Joy-boys.

I'm telling ya, they should have never let them play. Then they would still have good refs and they would never have had the controversy that started this thread.

Good one, J. NPPL set a tone at the first HB that indicated (falsely, as it turned out) that excellent reffing would be a cornerstone. And why (among other things) did it turn out that way? Among other reasons because the gigantic funds needed weren't put into it.

 

[Baca Loco]

And who is going to pay for these Pro series events?

Who is paying for them now? By every account the Pro divisions are loss leaders at best and, in essence, the rest of the event structure is in place to pick up that slack. Is it funny accounting or is it for real? If it's for real and the leagues are presently struggling and bleeding red then patently something has to change. (And if your follow-up is well, won't they lose even more money without the supporting structure in place? The answer is no, not if the re-structuring is done sensibly. A financial model of how my proposal would work isn't too difficult to work out if you really care. )

There is demand for a national circuit. It's even profitable demand (in the sense that looking at the non-Pro divisions, you seem to come up with enough money to not lose your shirt when you also run the Pro division.)

Maybe yes, maybe no. Everyone who knows tells me it ain't profitable but even if it's a break even deal the real question becomes is the current structure the best option and I don't think it is.

If people are willing to pay you money for it, why wouldn't you offer it?

One might say the same about kiddie porn too but I think most people wouldn't find that sufficient reason. I suppose it depends on what the peeps putting on the shows really want. Perhaps foolishly I've taken them at their word that they are interested in building and growing paintball and are committed to paintball as sport. The way things are currently being done doesn't seem to be accomplishing much other than propping up the status quo.

We can fix reffing just by getting better at reffing. All that takes is someone to decide that the reffing has to be better, although some out-of-industry money would help. But both of those things happen WITH a national circuit, not getting rid of one.


And I think it works - PSP seems to have decided last year that the reffing needed to be better, and it got better. Hell, for most of the events it was pretty good, with some sketchiness at Cup just because enough bodies haven't been found yet. Nonetheless, PSP is some evidence tht if you put some effort into it, you can do good things o the reffing front.

The same could be said for NPPL in 2003-2004 as well.

This is only peripherally related but the problem at the Pro level isn't competency--it's politics. And if there is no larger circuit your "problem" with reffing is "solved" cus it won't exist.

Good, then let the regional series handle their reffing issues on a local level.

While quality reffing is and should be an important factor it isn't the keystone element of the Big Picture as I see it. If we all universally acclaimed the officiating in the Big Leagues to be the best in all of sport would all Paintball's problems be solved? Since the answer is no then officiating isn't the be all and end all of "fixing" Paintball.

 

[Chicago]

What I'm getting at is this:

Who pays for the Pro event to be at the regional circuit?

Right now, the expense of the Pro event is mostly covered by the other divisions that occur alongside it - both through the entry fees of those teams, and the money spent by those players at the vendor trailers causing the vendors to pay vendor fees.

I don't understand how going to regional events improves your finances - you're eliminating the profitable part of the national events and trying to foist the least profitable part on someone else.

 

[Baca Loco]

What I'm getting at is this:

Who pays for the Pro event to be at the regional circuit?

Right now, the expense of the Pro event is mostly covered by the other divisions that occur alongside it - both through the entry fees of those teams, and the money spent by those players at the vendor trailers causing the vendors to pay vendor fees.

I don't understand how going to regional events improves your finances - you're eliminating the profitable part of the national events and trying to foist the least profitable part on someone else.

Actually the first thing I'm doing is disconnecting the competing and contradictory aspects of the current Big Leagues so succinctly characterized in a few earlier posts. Beyond that I think I can make a fairly comprehensive case on a number of levels for this, or something different from the current structure anyway, and if anybody who makes meaningful decisions wants to inquire I'll be happy to elaborate.
Start with the MAO and work from there.