Inconsistencies in Toulouse....

[Wadidiz]

I still don't have a straight answer about something (maybe some stupid questions):

Were there any players who had to play without their markers or who were suspended in Toulouse whose markers were actually tournament legal? I know there are different perspectives and opinions but I would really like to know what the "victims" think.

Some people seem to think we should not try to find any bounce at all. What if I slowly pull the trigger, while holding the bottle to my shoulder, and it bounces like full-auto? Should we accept that? What if it only does a triple bounce every six trigger pulls? Or a double every six tries? In other words where should the line be drawn?

We may not have a robot any time soon but we aren't going to just forget about the semi issue. I'm thinking about arranging the following:

1. We station at least two "marker scrutinizers" at least an hour before the first games by the chrono/shooting range so that players can have a quick test to find out what is generally acceptable.

2. We make doubly sure that all "marker scrutinizers" test markers the same way on the fields as the scrutinizers at the chrono/shooting range.

3. We make more of an effort to catch markers that are over the line before the game starts so that fewer players are penalized.

4. We allow a single or double bounce once every 10 shots or, on average, but nothing more (this obviously needs to be debated and the line drawn somewhere). This is while the gun is held firmly.

5. We do occasional random checks on-field or whenever we suspect something.

6. Whatever in-game tests we do are done symmetrically, i.e. to both teams in the exact same way.

7. Suspensions can only be applied for guns caught before the game is declared over by the head referee.

8. If a scrutinizer believes a gun ought to be kept out of a game (pre-game inspection) or suspended (caught during a game) then the team's captain may request a second judge to test it. It would have to fail the second test also for a penalty to be applied.

I would appreciate any serious suggestions about how to achieve what must be achieved. As long as I'm involved we are going to do something however imperfect. We need help in making it less imperfect.

Steve

 

[camsmith]

Steve,

This sounds like a good start to me (as in it's something that could even be done for Madrid).

IMO, the next step is to publish what the testing procedures are going to be so that players can adjust their triggers even before travelling to a tournament.

 

[MrDan]

nice 1 steve,
ive got to agree with that, i like point 4, and would like to suggest a 10% bounce margin, ie one in 10 shots would be allowed a single bounce, its like an act of god type thing.

maybe a robot would me required to ensure accuracy?

maybe we also need to come up with the basic rules and post them in a new thread were everyone can vote or suggest stuff, this thread is getting very long...... mods? ideas? ta in advance

 

[John C]

Surely the boundary is now clearly defined.

If you pull the trigger 10 times, and more than 11 balls come out (thats a 10% tolerance to compensate for acts of god / freak weather conditions or the famous cocker pixies) then its not semi auto.

The marshall can repeat this test in isolation as many times as he likes. (while trying to leave the player some paint for the ensuing game )

How the marshall makes these 10 trigger pulls isn't really relevant.

Neither is the 'reason' why a gun "appears" to shoot more than one shot per trigger pull.

What is imperative is that this test is performed the same by all marshalls, all the time.

It may take a while for the marshalls to find a test that can be performed over and over again and still yield the same results.

It may also take a while for players to stop setting their guns right on the edge of the law, but that is the real objective.

Before we all get the sport banned or something!!!

 

[jotajotaZ]

Originally posted by Wadidiz

8. If a scrutinizer believes a gun ought to be kept out of a game (pre-game inspection) or suspended (caught during a game) then the team's captain may request a second judge to test it. It would have to fail the second test also for a penalty to be applied.

What about those cheater boards that can activate an illegal mode with a defined trigger sequence and then restore the gun to legal mode after some seconds of inactivity?

If a referee catches someone with a gun clearly illegal and needs to wait for a second judge to come to test it, the gun could very well be restored to a legal state by the moment the second judge came.

 

[Wadidiz]

Please tell me what you think about this:
______________________

Millennium Standard Trigger Test

Revised July 2004

Any or all of the following tests may be performed by a member of the officiating staff. All tests will be performed with the marker held in a manner consistent with playing on the field:

1. The judge will fully depress and hold the trigger. While keeping the trigger fully depressed, the judge will attempt to move the trigger side to side. The judge will then release the trigger. No more than one paintball may have been discharged.

2. The judge will as quickly as possible fully depress and then release the trigger. No more than one paintball may have been discharged.

3. The judge will apply sideway pressure to the trigger and then attempt to fully depress the trigger. No more than one paintball may have been discharged.

4. The judge will slowly, over a period of time not to exceed two seconds, fully depress the trigger in one continuous motion and then, over a period of time not to exceed two seconds, slowly release the trigger in one continuous motion. No more than 12 paintballs may have been discharged per 10 conscious trigger activations.

5. The judge will fire the marker at a rate of fire of approximately 6 shots per second, to test for any non-semiautomatic mode. The marker may not have discharged more than one paintball per trigger cycle.

6. The judge will activate the trigger at the highest rate she or he can to test for any non-semiautomatic mode. The marker may not have discharged more than one paintball per trigger cycle.

7. The player will switch off any paintball detection system (if present and if switchable), switch back on the paintball detection system and activate the trigger at the highest rate she or he can to test for any non-semiautomatic mode. The marker may not have discharged more than one paintball per trigger cycle.

8. The judge will hold the marker with one hand and tap the back of the air bottle. No paintball may have been discharged.

Judges may, as they deem necessary, discharge as many as 140 paintballs for the purposes of testing each marker.

If the marker fails to pass any test performed the team captain may request that tests be performed an additional two times by another judge. The head field judge will witness these additional two tests. The marker will be deemed legal if it passes the additional tests; otherwise it will be deemed illegal.

Any proscribed penalty will then be applied.
___________________________

Steve

 

[John C]

That sounds very good.

I think any regulations are a good thing as they will encourage players not to push the grey area of semi auto.

The important thing is the ability for these tests to be reproduced over and over again and always yield the same results.




Point 7, is that to be performed by the player? That may be open to abuse???

How about excessive shot stacking that doesnt seem to be covered?

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by jotajotaZ
What about those cheater boards that can activate an illegal mode with a defined trigger sequence and then restore the gun to legal mode after some seconds of inactivity?

If a referee catches someone with a gun clearly illegal and needs to wait for a second judge to come to test it, the gun could very well be restored to a legal state by the moment the second judge came.

It seems to be painfully clear that we probably will never come up with a fool-proof system for catching all the real cheats, especially the really sophisticated ones.

Maybe we should say that a clearly ramping gun that appears to shoot full auto would not be allowed a second test.

I don't know.

I can say this: It may have been at a price but everyone I talked to said there didn't seem to be any guns behaving in a clearly illegal way on the fields in Toulouse. Am I wrong?

Steve

 

[John C]

Originally posted by Wadidiz


I can say this: It may have been at a price but everyone I talked to said there didn't seem to be any guns behaving in a clearly illegal way on the fields in Toulouse. Am I wrong?

Steve

Im not sure if it was deliberate but a team we played had a timmy that shot full auto if you held the trigger down.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by John C
Point 7, is that to be performed by the player? That may be open to abuse???

Thanks for catching that. How about this?

"7. The player will switch off any paintball detection system (if present and if switchable)and then switch back on the paintball detection system. The judge will then activate the trigger at the highest rate she or he can to test for any non-semiautomatic mode. The marker may not have discharged more than one paintball per trigger cycle."

Originally posted by John C
How about excessive shot stacking that doesnt seem to be covered?

I'm suggesting for the next rules revision that the following wording be added to the definition of a legal trigger:

"No paintball may be discharged after ½ second of the release of force on the trigger and in no case shall more than one paintball be discharged after the release of force on the trigger."

Let's keep talking about it. We may get somewhere.

Steve